CANCELLED - RULE CHANGE: EASY MODE

Developers, want feedback? Ask the players here.
Brumm
Posts: 2242

Re: RULE CHANGE: EASY MODE

Post#21 » Mon Jul 18, 2016 2:22 pm

I'll come up with a concept within the next week.

Cataca
Posts: 307

Re: RULE CHANGE: EASY MODE

Post#22 » Mon Jul 18, 2016 2:34 pm

Brumm wrote:You nearly convinced me. Though, I need to sleep over it.

Edit: Do you have already ideas how to implement it in detail? As a regular or epic feat? What kind of prerequisites?



No real idea on the feats in detail, but i have some basic ideas:

Heartfelt Blows:
Spoiler: show
Feat: General
Prequisite: bab 1, must not have turn undead
A character with this feat is adept at using blunt weapons with passion and grace, allowing him to make melee attack rolls with his charisma modifier instead of strength (if his charisma is higher than his strength). If the character gains access to turn undead after the feat is taken, it will become ineffective.

Use: Automatic when using any one of the following weapons: Club, Mace, Morningstar, Sling, Warmace, Warhammer, Quarterstaff, Flail and Heavy Flail


Tactical Strikes:
Spoiler: show
Feat: General
Prequisite: bab 1
A character with this feat is adept at using piercing weapons finding gaps in the armor and tactically strinking weak spots, allowing him to make melee attack rolls with his inteligence modifier instead of strength (if his inteligence is higher than his strength).

Use: Automatic when using any one of the following weapons: Dagger, Halberd(?), Shortsword, Spear, Rapier, Moringstar, Flail, Heavy Flail, Scythe (?)


Anything but rapier on the list is pretty much underused on RoT anyhow, maybe we'd see a couple more people using niche weapons this way. I cant really say if the turn undead restriction on Heartfelt blows is needed, but i put it there to be safe.

Fan
Posts: 576

Re: RULE CHANGE: EASY MODE

Post#23 » Mon Jul 18, 2016 10:41 pm

To Cataca, I think "Tactical Strikes" is not a bad idea. I am thinking about integrate it into Bladesinger PrC when I buff it.

I think integrating such powerful feats to underpowered PrC instead of introducing new general feats will be less likely to create balance problems.

Lomir
Posts: 241

Re: RULE CHANGE: EASY MODE

Post#24 » Mon Jul 18, 2016 10:55 pm

If you're going to integrate it into a PrC, could you please make sure that the PrC does not have a race requirement (or remove the race requirement for it), so that it let's all characters be eligible for the change?

Cataca
Posts: 307

Re: RULE CHANGE: EASY MODE

Post#25 » Tue Jul 19, 2016 2:18 am

Honestly, i am not sure i like the idea of tying those feats to a PRC. Bladesinger is certainly in a need of a buff, but it restricts race, weapon of choice and ultimately the caster class you base it off to a very narrow variety.

I think it would be better to eliminate powerful synergies from feats when implementing them, such as cha to ab - make it unusuable with weapons that snowflake wardance can use - ie. make them blunt or piercing, remove the possibility of people getting full ab and damage via EDM, make it unusable with turn undead present.

Not to say those feats are perfect, but i think they'd allow the greatest build variety while still preventing overpowered combinations. Realistically the only builds that would take them are caster bards, sorcerers/wizards with high bab and maybe the odd hexblade. I'd say neither of those build archetypes bears a great risk of ripping the balance landscape to shreds.

But, that is only my opinion on the matter.

addict-ant
Posts: 686

Re: RULE CHANGE: EASY MODE

Post#26 » Tue Jul 19, 2016 4:54 am

Caylin wrote:Does this mean that those with easy mode chars will keep the points or have them removed?


May I echo this query please?
Image

gazoo
Posts: 296

Re: RULE CHANGE: EASY MODE

Post#27 » Tue Jul 19, 2016 10:10 am

Another option is to deal directly with Intuitive attack. Adjust this particular feat, instead of adding feats to compensate the other caster-stat abilities for this one caster-stat imbalance.

An int or charisma feat should probably further be divided into 2 categories: ranged and melee.

Intuitive was never an issue prior because it was under the magical AB cap, at a time when getting to the 20 AB cap was irrelevant. But now with the cap eliminated, it means wisdom melee really opens up. Your basic melee is generally less feat-intensive than ranged (point blank, rapid shot, dex minimums for RS...etc). That's why zen archery doesn't have the same impact.

I was thinking that many huge magic-AB cap skills/spells were adjusted since the cap change...and that seemed to work ok. Intuitive never was...and now we are looking at adding a few other feats to compensate.

( Adding these other stat feats is deceptive: it's not really going to make mobs easier ultimately - the effect will be that once more classes have higher AB, the mobs will be appropriately adjusted upwards. End effect is wisdom/strength/dex-based could see harder mobs and there would be no real impact on char/int-based builds, other than a now-mandatory stat-feat pick.)

So even thought it seems a bit off-topic from the Easy-mode issue, I think it is relevant.
_______________________________________

TLDR:

Intuitive could be changed to be (just for example!) a simple +1 AB if wisdom >30
-and as a result, small AB tweaks can be made to PRCs and a huge change to int/wis AB skills is not needed.

bsb5652
Site Admin
Posts: 2787
Contact:

Re: RULE CHANGE: EASY MODE

Post#28 » Tue Jul 19, 2016 12:15 pm

addict-ant wrote:
Caylin wrote:Does this mean that those with easy mode chars will keep the points or have them removed?


May I echo this query please?



To be determined.
Brian Bloom

Realms of Trinity Executive Producer & Game Creator
http://www.realmsoftrinity.com

Cataca
Posts: 307

Re: RULE CHANGE: EASY MODE

Post#29 » Tue Jul 19, 2016 12:32 pm

Adding these other stat feats is deceptive: it's not really going to make mobs easier ultimately - the effect will be that once more classes have higher AB, the mobs will be appropriately adjusted upwards. End effect is wisdom/strength/dex-based could see harder mobs and there would be no real impact on char/int-based builds, other than a now-mandatory stat-feat pick


How exactly did you reach that conclusion? My main point and the reason why i am suggesting the stat feats in the first place, is because when easymode gets disabled/removed/whatever, gishes will die. They are not strong right now in the first place, they are barley viable. (unless you play them like a wizard with identity crysis, then you have a build that is essentially a weaker fighter with self conceal)

Lets compare builds and hard numbers because it seems people here have some romantic idea of gishes beeing strong, and suddenly beeing completely overpowered if they'd get a feat that gives them AB on their primary stat.

Gish: http://nwn2db.com/build/?228427
AB: 69, not counting TWF
DC: (40+9) *1,25 = 61 with level 9 evocation spells
AC: ~102-105

Cleric: http://nwn2db.com/build/?246210
AB: 88 -2 (flurry)
DC: (42+9) *1,25 = 63
AC: ~110

Post easymode? Cleric stays the same, its not easymode in the first place. The gish gets either -3 AB/AC (it cant, it already is too low) or -3 base DCs for 57 dc with level 9 spells (which is under the magic 60 marker of not fizzling half your spells).

If you give the gish tactical strikes, (and by some miracle i'd find a non-essential feat in the build that i can throw out) all that changes is that the gish can sacrifice 3 AC for keeping all its DCs, it gains damage and loses survivability. Its a fair trade, but it doesnt ultimately make the gish stronger.


As for nerfing intuitive attacks, and not touching zen archery: There is a belt that gives you *all* of the essential archer feats, and a bow that gives you 12 wisdom and practiced caster cleric. Zen archery is without doubt the better alternative already, with the same feat requirements. I compared those feats with intuitive attack, because i'd rather see melee feats.


Edit: And just to make that clear, i am struggling for survival here. This is a lifering, not a rocket backpack. After those feats gishes'll still need some love but at least the'll be playable.

Cataca
Posts: 307

Re: RULE CHANGE: EASY MODE

Post#30 » Tue Jul 19, 2016 12:49 pm

bsb5652 wrote:
addict-ant wrote:
Caylin wrote:Does this mean that those with easy mode chars will keep the points or have them removed?


May I echo this query please?



To be determined.


As someone who has many easymode builds, i just want to say that i am completely fine with losing the 5 extra points on them. Its an unfair advantage over other people on the server, and not something i'd really want.

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