SUGGESTION: Capping Spell Damage for Bosses

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kc2345
Posts: 676

SUGGESTION: Capping Spell Damage for Bosses

Post#1 » Mon Jul 29, 2019 9:08 am

Hi all,

I am thinking it may be a good idea to cap damage on % damage based spells as they currently trivialize boss encounters, in particular event bosses with very high HP.

Spells to be modded:
1) Avasculate - 50%. Capped at 50/CL, 2,500 at CL50 and 3,050 for a CL61 Red Wizard Necromancer with Inexoerabilis
2) Drown - 90%. Capped at 90/CL, 4,500 at CL50 (not as big a problem due to the Fort save)
3) Mass Drown - same as Drown

These numbers would limit the damage done to mobs with over 5,000 hp, with no change to mobs that lie below this threshold.

The 5,000 hp threshold is above that of pretty much any non-boss enemy, so general farming will not be affected in a significant way.

This approach is in my opinion better than lowering the % damage dealt, as that would also have knock-on effects on using the spells on non-boss creatures and be ineffective vs group event mobs with absurdly high HP (30% of 30k HP is still 9,000 damage).
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bsb5652
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Re: SUGGESTION: Capping Spell Damage for Bosses

Post#2 » Tue Jul 30, 2019 6:44 am

We can add these spells to our boss anti-cheeze scripts pretty easily. Will wait for further feedback before making any changes, though.
Brian Bloom

Realms of Trinity Executive Producer & Game Creator
http://www.realmsoftrinity.com

FFF
Posts: 18

Re: SUGGESTION: Capping Spell Damage for Bosses

Post#3 » Tue Jul 30, 2019 11:17 am

4) Vampiric Feast from copies

Lady Seline
Posts: 62

Re: SUGGESTION: Capping Spell Damage for Bosses

Post#4 » Tue Jul 30, 2019 12:58 pm

Avasculate:
Simply put. No.
SR and touch attack, and save DC. They have TWO chances to completely ignore it, three to ignore the stun. If a wizard/Sorc dedicates 5 (15 lvls worth of) feats to having this spell land 50ish % of the time they desere not to waste a L7 spell. Simple at that.

However... I would be unbiased to not add the following notes.
Spoiler: show
"You shoot a ray of necromantic energy from your outstretched hand, causing any living creature struck by the ray to violently purge blood or other vital fluids through its skin.
You must succeed on a ranged touch attack to affect the subject.
If successful, the subject is reduced to half of its current hit points (rounded down) and stunned for 1 round.
On a successful Fortitude saving throw, the subject is not stunned."
Current Avasculate isnt I think blocked by target being Undead or Construct. All custom mobs in game need to be cheched they have the correct race modifier set (I keep being unable to control or undeath to death skeleton looking mobs) and as much as I hate saying this, Avasculate needs checking that it is made to only affect living targets as intended (so constuct and undead: nope, and also targets affected by K's and standard Living Undeath spell (Clr 2) (change these buff spells to add specific spell immunity too))

Vampiric feast from copies:
Yes.
All epic spells are spells.
All copies in the spell description loose ability to cast spells.

Drown:
No, same reason as Avasculate.
HOWEVER, its only a L6 spell and does 90% blocked by iron body spell (wiz/sorc only). This is compared to Avaculate doing 50% blocked by shadow shield, or necromancy immunity as a L7 spell. The mass version is also L9 only.

Based off mass spell modifier (+4SL) mass drown implies drown is a L5 spell...
Simply put both the damage of drown is too high compared to its equivalent spell avasculate (should be 50% or less), is possibly 1 lvl too low, and mass drown should not exist as it would be a MINIMUM L10 spell baseed off Drown being L6.

Oh... and as base engine bugs go:
"As opposed to Drown, Mass Drown does not bypass Bludgeoning damage resistances, probably an oversight. This means enemies may actually suffer less than 90% damage depending on damage reduction/resistance/immunity they have in place"

So sounds to me, fix would be drop damage on both to 50%, MAYBE raise its SL to 7 (if no other changes made), remove mass version that should not even exist by D&D rules, and allow physical (bludgeoning) immunity to apply in full as per the penalty on spells like ice storm and corpse explosion.
Spoiler: show
"Feat: Mass Effect Spell (Metamagic)

Your spells can affect more targets.

Benefit: A spell that normally affects a single target now affects 1 target /caster level, no two of which can be more than 30 ft. apart. A mass effect spell uses up a spell slot 4 levels higher than the spell’s actual level."

cMEfaiL
Posts: 62

Re: SUGGESTION: Capping Spell Damage for Bosses

Post#5 » Tue Jul 30, 2019 6:51 pm

Honestly i am unfamiliar with drown/ mass drown . I know that for farming mass drown is proly one of the best SS/druid spells but does it work on bosses as good and as often as avasc no idea.Speaking about the avasc i can agree that doing 9999 dmg is kind-a nice ; ) ,i can also understand ppl that do not like it ( not that i like dual wielders doing more dmg per hit than any 2h weapon user but that seems a different story ) so a small nerf won't hurt in my opinion but to the initial 3k dmg 2.5k is too low ! The proposition to make it working only on living things "as intended" will be far more problematic for me personally but biases aside both proposition are valid so i'd say nerf it to 3k hp and make all bosses intended to be undead or constructs proper race and we have 2 problems solved more challenging events ( casting 10 avasc instead of 2 ...) and difficulties for soloing arcane casters(in some areas).

kc2345
Posts: 676

Re: SUGGESTION: Capping Spell Damage for Bosses

Post#6 » Tue Jul 30, 2019 9:01 pm

I am not advocating a total nerf of these spells, merely saying that they should not be hitting boss mobs so hard that nobody else can even come close. Even with the proposed caps, these spells remain the top damage choice. In fact, unless you are fighting a mob with more than 100 hp for every caster level you have, there is absolutely NO DIFFERENCE to your damage under the proposed caps.

An objection/support of this proposal should address why the spells should/should not be allowed to scale all the way to 9,999 damage on any target instead of going off on tangents about valid targets. If 9,999 is too much, what number would be a reasonable target? Brian already said it's technically possible, and I can't imagine implementation being more difficult than adding 1-2 lines of code to the spells. Valid targets for these spells is a separate issue which requires much more tweaking, and this could be discussed in a fresh forum thread to keep things focused.

The main reason Avasculate is generally more problematic than (Mass) Drown is that the damage occurs regardless of saving throw, and this severely trivialises event bosses if an arcane caster is present.

Typically, enemies who have huge HP pools also possess Fort saves above the maximum achievable DC (low-mid 60s), so the Drown spells simply do not work. Notable exceptions to this are the Abyss giant and Spider bosses.

In contrast, Avasculate is subject to only SR and RTA. The Fort save merely avoids the stun, but keeps the damage. SR is automatically bypassed about 55% of the time with Epic Harsh Caster, and this allows it to pierce even Necromancy immunity, as the game engine codes school immunity as a very high SR. When you factor in that the spell can still just hit normally without Harsh Casting, SR is poor protection. Additionally RTAs basically have a 95% hit rate on ROT, as mobs on this server do not have high Touch AC. Instead, almost all their AC is Natural/Armor, which is bypassed completely. Try and see how often you actually miss a Touch Attack. It's main issue is getting through concealment, not AC. If you have Blind Fight, you have a 25% miss rate in Touch Spells vs a 50% concealed mob. This drops to 12.5% with the Arcane set or Daggerspell feat.

Additionally, Avasculate is actually not working as intended, as it possess the 'Death' in spell descriptor. Death Immunity should guard against it, but does not. However, proper implementation of this would nerf the spell to oblivion due to how common death immunity is, and hence I'm not suggesting this as an approach.

Shadow Sim Vamp Feast cheese is more of an issue with Mobs being awarded the Feat Spell all willy-nilly.

But yeah, a cap to the damage of this spell of something like 80/CL (max 4,000) is something I could get behind. Removing the ability of Shadow Sims to cast it would be great too.
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Brumm
Posts: 2181

Re: SUGGESTION: Capping Spell Damage for Bosses

Post#7 » Wed Jul 31, 2019 1:37 am

Regarding Vamipiric Feast I would suggest to add our customized cheeze protection. That would mean that you get just a percent based damage if your target is too strong for your casting capability.

For Avasculate this would work too of course but I am not sure if it is the best solution. Maybe the cap KC mentioned would be the easier and better solution. Same for Drown of course.

addict-ant
Posts: 674

Re: SUGGESTION: Capping Spell Damage for Bosses

Post#8 » Wed Jul 31, 2019 5:10 am

I think KC'S suggestion is a good one. To put it in some dm context - the DM client can only add 5k hp to a mob, and even that is a lot of clicks to get there.

Vamp feast is not really a part of this issue to my mind.
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Brownyman
Posts: 252

Re: SUGGESTION: Capping Spell Damage for Bosses

Post#9 » Wed Jul 31, 2019 7:34 am

Mass drown is good for levelling in canibals , end game higher EX lith content it doesnt get through a lot, in a mob you might get 2 or 3. Abyss Non EX gets two bosses most of the time.

I dont see a problem with a hp cap though on these spells as it wont make a lot of difference to general play vs Mobs. Bosses should be tough!
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Fraggle
Posts: 158

Re: SUGGESTION: Capping Spell Damage for Bosses

Post#10 » Wed Jul 31, 2019 10:20 am

I agree with KC and Browny, Bosses should be tough!
To be more concrete, i am not talkig About the low Level Loot Pinata Bosses, but the CR Ones ( especially at Spawn Areas ) like Vracz, Quizi and Xyldrith should be very tough Fighting while Area Spawns is part of Balancing, especially on high EXmode!
EX6 at such Areas should be a Party Challenge! I believe, they should get at every higher Exmode another Immu beginning with EX2 up to EX6.
Immu Instant Death effects like Weird, Sunburst ...
Immu Mind, Stun, Paralayze ( immu to all, which prevents them to do their Job and try to kill you )...
Immu Shadow Sim ...
Immu high Damage Spells which halfes their HP except Vamp Feast ( this you can use only once per Day )...

At Least they should be able to stay a Group fight up to minimum 1 Area Spawn Duration on EX6 to make it a real Challenge on EX6 !

Before now some Caster Player cry, they are useless than, dont forget you can Stun or instant kill the Spawn Mobs. Their must be a Reason why a Party should have different Classes and i think Archers and Melee can get a small Boost compared to the OP Caster Classes at this point.

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