When NOT to use runewords? Also, first-time forging question

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Zippy_Zaboo
Posts: 20

When NOT to use runewords? Also, first-time forging question

Post#1 » Wed Apr 10, 2019 2:58 pm

Advice needed on forging and runewords!

Is there a list of best to worst (i.e. least-resisted to most-resisted) damage types anywhere?

For example, i have a rapier which has a bunch of spells and HP and stuff, and also has these weapon-specific bonuses :
Acid 3d6

Slashing 2d10
Bludgeoning 3d10
Piercing 3d12

Magical 3d10
Magical 2 (I think this becomes moot because of the higher magical damage...?)

Enhancement +13
Holy Avenger (i have no idea what this does)
Keen
Vampiric 2

BASIC FORGING Q: If some of those are always resisted then I don't know if it makes more sense to delete some of those damage types and replace w/ others. Should I do that or leave it alone?

LEGENDARY QUESTION: Should I even use darksteel, mithral, and cold iron on this sword, or is this not good enough as a base? All the high level characters I see are doing crazy huge amounts of damage--this will be my only high level toon for a while, and I don't want to blow all my cards on one sword if I'm likely to find better. What kinds of weapons do the L38-40 toons use?

RUNE QUESTION: I also have the APK runes to add vampiric 12 to my weapon (I don't have the super good ones for vamp +15.) Does that bonus stack with, or replace, any vampiric damage that I would add in the forge (supposedly up to +10)? If the rune replaces I won't bother forging; if it stacks then obviously that would be great.

Also, is there any reason NOT to put "Magic Find" on my armor, like "it won't let you add stuff later and you'll regret it" or something?

TIA

addict-ant
Posts: 654

Re: When NOT to use runewords? Also, first-time forging question

Post#2 » Wed Apr 10, 2019 5:47 pm

The +13 enchantment bonus wont stack with the same dmg type as the base weapon type i.e. the piercing so it can be better to unforge that and add a regular 2d8 of differing type.

However as you have 5 different dmg types and if you start unforging you can only forge 4 dmg types, my advice would be to leave it alone - there might be others who can do the maths and advise better than i.... *coughs*KC*coughs*

If it's for a melee toon i would personally apply all legendary metals except the bludgeoning one (admantine?) as that would over write it with the inferior 4d6(?).

Unless you've eyes on a particular set weapon, I'd suggest it is good enough to forge up (I assume that's a super-lucky roll on a dm event item?) and remind everyone that dm's can do legendary resets for a small price (1mil gp and 10 wish shards iirc).

I'd wait on the vamp regen for the better runes as you can forge 10 vamp regen with craft weapon at 20 at the UD forge.

Runes/legendary metals always over-write anything already there of the same type.

You will probably want Teleport (TDD) on your final armor - i'd suggest magic find be placed on an armor many toons could use to lvl with.

If i haven't answered a question, it's because i'm not sure of the correct answer ;)
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kc2345
Posts: 644

Re: When NOT to use runewords? Also, first-time forging question

Post#3 » Wed Apr 10, 2019 6:48 pm

I honestly would not recommend using that weapon as a primary weapon.

It has 2 major issues:
1) The 3d12 Piercing does not stack with the +13 damage from the enhancement bonus

2) The 3d10 Bludgeoning will not stack with the ER3 adamantite.

It's decent as an offhand weapon though.

If you do insist in using it, to optimize that weapon, unforge the piercing, bludgeoning and 2 magic damage and replace with 2d8 divine. Forge Vampiric to 10, and add 2d8 massive critical. You can leave the Bludgeoning and Piercing on if you use it offhand and do not apply ER3 adamantite to it.

It will look like this:

Acid 3d6 (+1.5 dmg over a 2d8)
Slashing 2d10 (+2 dmg over a 2d8)
Divine 2d8 (a 2d8!)
Magical 3d10 (7.5 dmg over a 2d8)
Enhancement +13
Holy Avenger
Keen
Vampiric 10
Massive Critical 2d8

This weapon is worth approximately +11 damage over a fully modded non-magical weapon.

Runeword-wise, for a rapier the Vamp regen one is probably best.

If you have a Kukri, you can runeword 2d8 acid on for higher damage assuming the weapon doesn't already have it for an additional +9 damage.

As an offhand, it will look like this:

Acid 3d6 (+1.5 dmg over a 2d8)
Slashing 2d10 (+2 dmg over a 2d8)
Piercing 3d12 (6.5 dmg over +13 EB)
Bludgeoning 3d10 (7.5 dmg over 2d8)
Magical 3d10 (7.5 dmg over a 2d8)
Enhancement +13
Holy Avenger
Keen
Vampiric 10
Massive Critical 2d8

It's worth +25 damage over a non-magical offhand rapier. The main reason for the discrepancy is ER3 adamantite adding 4d6 bludgeoning, which is not an issue for offhands.
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Zippy_Zaboo
Posts: 20

Re: When NOT to use runewords? Also, first-time forging question

Post#4 » Thu Apr 11, 2019 7:07 am

Thanks so much! I didn't realize the +13 and piercing would not stack but that explains why i'm not doing as much damage as I hoped.

With that said, I am not sure I understand why the difference between main hand and offhand. When you say

"It's worth +25 damage over a non-magical offhand rapier. The main reason for the discrepancy is ER3 adamantite adding 4d6 bludgeoning, which is not an issue for offhands" can you explain?

Do you mean that I wouldn't apply the ER3 adamantine bonus to the offhand, so it doesn't matter that there would be an overlap betwen ER2 and the weapon? Or is there some basic difference in how damage is calculated for main and off hand weapons even with PTWF?

Also: to make things even more complex :)....

That build is using COTW levels and also has EDM. This weapon also appears to do extra damage w/ Holy Avenger, whatever that is (the toon happens to have paladin levels) and also often does more damage with Undead Bane spell.

Do those various damage bonuses stack, or do they also overlap?

kc2345
Posts: 644

Re: When NOT to use runewords? Also, first-time forging question

Post#5 » Thu Apr 11, 2019 8:01 am

The mainhand weapon gets an extra attack per round from haste that the offhand does not benefit from, assuming Perfect TWF. Prior to PTWF, the difference in attacks per round is even greater.

Hence, it is generally better to put all ER3 metals on your mainhand weapon in a TWF based build as the ER3 bonus damage would apply more times per combat round.

An offhand rapier would thus not have to worry about ER3 adamantite damage not stacking with its innate damage bonus dice.

I believe Holy Avenger adds 1d6 divine vs evil if you have a paladin level or a high enough UMD score.

I'm not 100% certain of the stacking of Holy Avenger, Undead Bane weapon and forged damage though, as I never tried to do extensive testing on the mechanics.
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Zippy_Zaboo
Posts: 20

Re: When NOT to use runewords? Also, first-time forging question

Post#6 » Thu Apr 11, 2019 9:22 am

Ah, I did not know that about haste. One more thing to remember :) thx

I'll try to run a test and see if i can figure out how the whole thing stacks with
COTW (dex damage), EDM (divine damage), Undead Bane (more divine damage) and Holy Avenger (even more divine damage). It may be that I'm simply wasting my time on this particular two-rapier build, in which case it's better to know now.

Lady Seline
Posts: 36

Re: When NOT to use runewords? Also, first-time forging question

Post#7 » Thu Apr 11, 2019 2:48 pm

I found a rapier with +18 Vamp. isnt it a better idea to take a weapon like this and forge it up, cos 18 VR is stupidly high?

Brumm
Posts: 2113

Re: When NOT to use runewords? Also, first-time forging question

Post#8 » Fri Apr 12, 2019 1:43 am

Lady Seline wrote:I found a rapier with +18 Vamp. isnt it a better idea to take a weapon like this and forge it up, cos 18 VR is stupidly high?


I love my random item generator :lol:

Edit: Highest would have been 20 with a chance of 1:250. For an 18 you need to roll at least a 237 or higher on a d250. So 18 is already a pretty good roll!

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