New Combat Mode for Rogues

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Brumm
Posts: 2181

Re: New Combat Mode for Rogues

Post#11 » Wed Jul 20, 2016 5:05 am

I'll see if I can do anything with the Parry mode but I am not very optimistic. Its hardcoded so I have to find a workaround.

Alariann
Posts: 37

Re: New Combat Mode for Rogues

Post#12 » Fri Jul 22, 2016 1:43 am

Hey Rogues!

I thought about the ability of the Rogue to move in stealth mode.
As I play almost only in groups, at least when we need to kill things, I noticed that one frustrating thing is that, as a stealthy Rogue, we don't have time to go forward before the rest of our fellow adventurers.
Usually, when I try to go forward to set some traps for instance, the rest of the group is running into the enemies before I can be close to them in stealth (Rogues are no tanks). I usually don't say anything before doing it because I don't want to impose the waiting on my team mates, even more as this is totally not needed: why wait when it would be faster to just run into the enemies?
So, what I was thinking is a way for the Rogue to be in the front line, before the others.
We already talked about making the Rogue faster in stealth and make the traps faster to set (instant would be nice), but I guess the later is not possible.
I had another idea:
Shadow Step: a feat or item that would permit the Rogue to teleport to the enemy, or even to some kind of beacon in the current map. The Rogue could set a kind of beacon at any place on the map, and then he could teleport there when activation the feat/item.
The issue here, I guess, is that it's really too close to the teleport feat for caster from the wish shard shop, and I even saw someone using a rune to achieve this kind of thing.

Another thing. Without talking about the Rogue special abilities I think he should have, if we talk about the fight itself, the Rogue is pretty boring to use. He has a too low BAB and more than often just misses the target when fighting in melee. Shouldn't he be a master of dexterity? I guess he didn't sleep enough? :lol:
But seriously, as his stealth attack is his speciality, he should be able to at least have a great boost in AB, or even hit 100% of the time using it with less attacks maybe. His damage even with stealth attack are not that high at all anyway.
Rogue :evil:

Brumm
Posts: 2181

Re: New Combat Mode for Rogues

Post#13 » Fri Jul 22, 2016 5:22 am

Like you said: Shadow jump would be way too close to Teleport. For your problem the Runeword Enigma makes probably the most sense. You could teleport to the front -> hide -> drop a trap - teleport back.

For the traps I need to see what I can do.

Alariann
Posts: 37

Re: New Combat Mode for Rogues

Post#14 » Fri Jul 22, 2016 5:50 am

Indeed, I read the guide on runes and this is actually the type of mechanic I was thinking about, sorry! :oops:
Looking forward to testing your changes. :)
Rogue :evil:

Brumm
Posts: 2181

Re: New Combat Mode for Rogues

Post#15 » Sun Jul 24, 2016 10:59 am

I started with the coding and got a new idea. Numbers aren't the final ones of course:

The new combat mode cuts your attacks into half (minimum one). The attacks are executed with your highest base attack bonus so you'll loose just those attacks that are more likely to miss the target anyways.

While you have combat mode activated, you deal an extra d6 physical damage for each real sneak dice you have. If you attack your target from behind (within an angle of 40°) your extra sneak damage is tripled.

I plan to add negative effects in case the player has Crippling Strike. I would love to get a slow effect working but I am still not sure if that is possible.

Opportunist and Epic Precision will add something as well.

What do you think about such a combat mode?

Alariann
Posts: 37

Re: New Combat Mode for Rogues

Post#16 » Sun Jul 24, 2016 11:49 am

I like the idea!
Less hits but with highest attack bonus is nice. It's like the Rogue tries to hit less but he focuses on the enemies weaknesses so he is more accurate.
Same with the bonus depending on sneak attack dices. The numbers seem a bit too high it seems, but let's test and tune them ;). Would the enemies immune to sneak attacks be affected?

About the slow effect: that would be a fun addition. I don't know what you can do but what about a spell that would be cast when you hit directly on the enemy if it doesn't have the effect already, and with a high enough save check that no creature would resist it? Like a slow spell?
I like the debuff thing, as it represents the ability of the Rogue to hit with accuracy to the opponent's weakness.
But I don't think it is working fine with the higher damages attacks: in a group the enemies will dies too quickly for any benefits, and in solo it's basically the same unless it works on tougher enemies. Do you see what I mean?

Maybe an interesting effect would be one that has an impact on the enemies around. Maybe something like a small and short fear effect? Or confusion? As they see their allies being stabbed/killed by a shadow.

Your idea to add something if a Rogue choose Epic Precision is nice. If the sneak dices apply against enemies that are immune to sneak attacks then maybe add a better chance to hit and to cripple the enemy?

I noticed the test server was live today. Can we test your changes there?
Rogue :evil:

Brumm
Posts: 2181

Re: New Combat Mode for Rogues

Post#17 » Sun Jul 24, 2016 4:32 pm

Alariann wrote:Same with the bonus depending on sneak attack dices. The numbers seem a bit too high it seems, but let's test and tune them ;). Would the enemies immune to sneak attacks be affected?


At the moment: yes. Sneak immunity wont protect them at all.


Alariann wrote:About the slow effect: that would be a fun addition. I don't know what you can do but what about a spell that would be cast when you hit directly on the enemy if it doesn't have the effect already, and with a high enough save check that no creature would resist it? Like a slow spell?


That's the problem. The slow effect is hardcoded in the engine and there is no way to make it irresistible. If the target has freedom of movement the effect wont do anything. But I found a workaround which seems to work. We just need to test it a bit more.

Alariann wrote:I like the debuff thing, as it represents the ability of the Rogue to hit with accuracy to the opponent's weakness.


It might make sense to reduce the combat abilities of the target so that he does not hit that hard back. I am working on it.

Alariann wrote:But I don't think it is working fine with the higher damages attacks: in a group the enemies will dies too quickly for any benefits, and in solo it's basically the same unless it works on tougher enemies. Do you see what I mean?


Sure. We need to test how it feels.

Alariann wrote:Maybe an interesting effect would be one that has an impact on the enemies around. Maybe something like a small and short fear effect? Or confusion? As they see their allies being stabbed/killed by a shadow.

That must be a feat or something like that. Throwing sand into the eyes or whatever. For the combat mode it doesn't make much sense in my opinion.

Alariann wrote:Your idea to add something if a Rogue choose Epic Precision is nice. If the sneak dices apply against enemies that are immune to sneak attacks then maybe add a better chance to hit and to cripple the enemy?


Maybe just higher damage. I want to keep the code simple for efficiency reasons. We need test a few things.

Alariann wrote:I noticed the test server was live today. Can we test your changes there?


No, so far I am just playing around on my local test server. I need a bit more time. Too much RL stuff to do.

Greetings
Brumm

Brumm
Posts: 2181

Re: New Combat Mode for Rogues

Post#18 » Sun Jul 24, 2016 6:12 pm

I hate combat modes.

gazoo
Posts: 296

Re: New Combat Mode for Rogues

Post#19 » Sun Jul 24, 2016 6:59 pm

Brumm,

did you consider looking into doing something elaborate with crippling strike? This is a very rogue-only (well, sometimes it's on Trickster builds here via Dark Lantern). It takes 10 rogue or 1 DL and some SA.

Currently it does 2 points strength damage and is a gateway for epic precision. Which is not terrible, I suppose, depending if the mob has immunity to stat effects.

I take it on most every rogue, even if Rogue Sneak attack is greatly overshadowed by all the craftable weapon damage bonuses and item damage.

This particular feat could have a lot of potential to do more interesting things for rogues. I don't have any suggestions for exactly what extra at this time, but if I was incorporating more effects to the rogue class - I'd boost this feat's effect.

Also, Hips could be introduced as a very high level feat for rogues (20+?). That could save a prc slot and some feats.

Another possiblity is to add an x/per day 100 skill bluff/feint ability. I know that my 100 skill bluffer really wasn't effective past 3.18 - but it may have selective uses. Adds a bit of variety.


Just throwing out some ideas, that may be simpler than trying to invent a mode.
Last edited by gazoo on Sun Jul 24, 2016 7:14 pm, edited 10 times in total.

Alariann
Posts: 37

Re: New Combat Mode for Rogues

Post#20 » Sun Jul 24, 2016 7:01 pm

Thanks for your answers.

Alariann wrote:
Maybe an interesting effect would be one that has an impact on the enemies around. Maybe something like a small and short fear effect? Or confusion? As they see their allies being stabbed/killed by a shadow.

That must be a feat or something like that. Throwing sand into the eyes or whatever. For the combat mode it doesn't make much sense in my opinion.

Yes that's true. This is more like a separate feat.


I hate combat modes.

I believe in you! :twisted:. Good luck!
Rogue :evil:

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