Rogue Set

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Onomatopoeia
Posts: 70

Re: Rogue Set

Post#11 » Mon Sep 03, 2018 11:38 pm

As neither D&D nor NWN is class balanced I have always considered the "class balancing" project to be a bit of a fool's errand. But if this was some thing that considered important Arcanes stand out far above the rest. In my opinion non-set arcane compares favorable to most other classes with their sets.

With golem damage mitigation, shard feat teleport, epic mage armor, instill vulnerability, 45 BAB with Tensers, top tier AoE and DoT damage and the versatility of a over 300 spells to choose from makes them true powerhouses. A sorc can remain concealed for hours of real time by recasting ext. displacement and ext. greater invisibility. Their only disadvantage in my opinion is this power generates quite a bit of lag. This lag in events I feel is the biggest problem of RoT.

With their sets with a +12 or +16 shield bonus allows for fairly easy access to ACs over 120. It seems the "no monkeygrip" limitation is easily overcome as a careful observer may notice them with staff and shield.

I am not advocating any changes and don't want to create extra work for our wonderful and hard working developers. As long as the rules are consistent I will build without complaint. Just posting this to say class balancing might be better in theory than in practice.

fox
Posts: 124

Re: Rogue Set

Post#12 » Tue Sep 04, 2018 1:02 pm

addict-ant wrote:Also, 12mins would require an extended displacement with a caster level of 60, unless i very much miss my guess. Let us not forget that even before the arcane rework an extended displace lasted 528secs (8.8mins) with a max CL of 44.

1-Yes Ant it's 12 mins with cl 50, also you can have 20 uses or more at the flick of wrist! But 8.8 be great!

Trying to keep this in perspective, the other melee set 'clickies' (that i can think of, correct me if i'm wrong) are as follows:
Black Guard - BAB 40, +12STR, +18 dmg, 60% conceal for 1min; 2/day
Paladin - +500hp, regen 20, Ethereal for 30secs; 3/day
Fighter - 50/DR-, 75% conceal for 1min; 3/day
Swash/Thug - 85% conceal vs ranged only +300hp for 2mins, regen 60 for 30secs; 3/day
Eldritch Knight - +5AB, 75% conceal for 1min 30secs; 3/day
Dwarven Defender - Barkskin/Regen Spell CL 13 ;3/day

2- No conceal on fight that I know of. it's hp and regen. Really man you want rogues to be as crappy as those you listed? Who you know? Someone that plays any of those other classes? Nobody does.


Rogue/Monk being +8 AB, 60% conceal for 3mins and regen 20 for 30secs; 2/day seems pretty darn strong in comparison.

As Monk is quencers, scrolls, party members; if you really feel you need it for a difficult area and the cloak plus resting isn't enough.

3-This thread isn't about monks, is about two year old rogue sets having abilities taken off.

Not to do that? You make an error and suddenly you have tons more work to do; far, far more than just correcting the error would take?

4-This error as you call it is 2 years old? So hurry up now and fix it? Nobody asked them to fix it.

If an error is made you fix it, you don't re-write the system to accommodate the error.

fox
Posts: 124

Re: Rogue Set

Post#13 » Tue Sep 04, 2018 2:49 pm

addict-ant wrote:
If an error is made you fix it, you don't re-write the system to accommodate the error.



Not asking for system rewrite mate, bit of hyperbole there. The set's duration is what we are talking about.
Asking not to reduce a long time validated set.

You do realize much time has been spent already scaling back the other sets too far (i.e. fight). Time is spent better scaling back than just leaving them alone?


Add that my last two stop watch tests of extended displacement clock at 10 min exactly. This point is mute however because the ability for caster to have persistent/non dispellable haste and conceal is very real.
Last edited by fox on Tue Sep 04, 2018 3:15 pm, edited 1 time in total.

Samyx
Posts: 679

Re: Rogue Set

Post#14 » Tue Sep 04, 2018 3:08 pm

Yes, there was absolutely no hurry changing that set power duration.
Everytime something is done to break something that works and that noone is asking to be changed, I can't stop thinking such time could have been better placed at fixing something that does not work and is really wanted by players.
BTW, comparing DD or other old sets and Rogue set to make Rogue so awesome is just another way for me to consider : why not put that tidbit of energy fixing that DD set instead of reducing the length of something that works ?

Fraggle
Posts: 162

Re: Rogue Set

Post#15 » Tue Sep 04, 2018 3:25 pm

Install and join Discord, than Bugfixes and changes by public Posts at Forums will not surprise you.
You would although know, that several Players means, Rogues are to strong.

Its a Bugfix, not more, they are very strong now too. Rogueset opens so many and different ways for various Builds.
You want Tenser and Displacement, feel free to Dip with Sorc/Wiz and Arcane Trickster.
You wanna much more AB and Damage, feel free to Build with Cleric/FS and Shadowbane.
You cant live without Conceal and Epic Dodge, go Dexbased.
The Rogueset is so strong, compared to all other Sets, that even a non OP Build can solo all on RoT.
I am sure, that all your Rogue Builds can survive and solo without using Cloak Ability, near to all Areas at Eventserver.
Feel free to rest and rebuff often, when you cant live without Cloak Special.
Or do it like all other Players on this Server, who using now the Cloak Special mainly at difficult fights, not while killing Trashmob.

Samyx
Posts: 679

Re: Rogue Set

Post#16 » Tue Sep 04, 2018 3:36 pm

Bah, I have discord and sometimes I read to discussions some have there, and disagree with most.
Must I therefore consider that when it is discussed on discord, then it becomes the ultimate truth ?
No. all arguments so far are not convincing me that THIS part of rogue set was THE urgent thing to be changed, as well as some othere recent changes (that I wont put here so we don't mix subjects).

fox
Posts: 124

Re: Rogue Set

Post#17 » Tue Sep 04, 2018 6:12 pm

Fraggle wrote:I
Or do it like all other Players on this Server, who using now the Cloak Special mainly at difficult fights, not while killing Trashmob.


All other players on this server? Hyperbole?


Fraggle , why do you only play rogue anymore?

Fraggle
Posts: 162

Re: Rogue Set

Post#18 » Wed Sep 05, 2018 1:03 pm

@ Samyx,
I remember, you was the one who cries loudest and most often: nerf Rogues, they are totally Overpowered. You have very often interesting Ideas, but mostly you dont use or argue with serious Math and often you overshot all targets. Your "Truth" is mainly: I wanna all!

@ Fox,
i play often Rogue, as i like their tactical variations and they although work dispelled well ( so without Cloak Special ). I dont play only Rogue, thats a huge difference!

Samyx
Posts: 679

Re: Rogue Set

Post#19 » Wed Sep 05, 2018 1:25 pm

Fraggle wrote:@ Samyx,
I remember, you was the one who cries loudest and most often: nerf Rogues, they are totally Overpowered. You have very often interesting Ideas, but mostly you dont use or argue with serious Math and often you overshot all targets. Your "Truth" is mainly: I wanna all!

At least quote me seriously when you do so. I opened a debate about wether or not Finishing stroke is too much, and while I was on the "nerf" side, that was a debate, not a cry out loud, and I was never about nerfing ROGUES.

Additionally, I strongly believe playing NWN2 is not all about Maths, I 'am not a maths specialist, I don't want to spend my time crunshing numbers until I find that a Class1/class2/class3/class4 combo has the best AB/AC/whatever ratio. This bears no interest to me. I want to play with simple rules that don't change and that don't waste my limited time to redo my lovely toons at every rule change whim. You may like maths, so be it. But I don't.

And saying I want all is a complete lack of honesty, not say to an assumption based on nothing else than our disagreement.
Last edited by Samyx on Wed Sep 05, 2018 1:56 pm, edited 1 time in total.

addict-ant
Posts: 684

Re: Rogue Set

Post#20 » Wed Sep 05, 2018 1:56 pm

I'm sorry you can't see the logic and wisdom in this decision. It was a blatant OP oddity when compared to all other sets and having discussed it with several players, I feel confident your desries are in the minority.

The longer it was left in game, the more damage it was going to do. It took so long because the team as a whole were not made aware of the issue for almost that long and it took until recently for Dev time to become available. As it was a case of making the effect match the description, the intent and comparable with the other sets in game, labelling it as a nerf is a misnomer at best and really rather disingenuous at worst.


@Fox - I'm glad you changed your last post :) as that was bordering on a personal attack :(
Apologies for not getting the Fighter clicky right, it's 50/- DR for 1min and 60 regen for 30secs. I stand corrected. Equally I hope you will grab a calculator before quoting numbers.

@Ono - I very much take on board, all, that you have said. Perhaps 'class balancing' is a misnomer and I should have called it 'boosting weaker classes' instead; though perhaps the distinction is equally insensible.


P.S. I will not be posting in this thread again.

P.P.S. I see while i write this several more posts have gone up - if you want to debate the issue among yourselves (and possibly prove me wrong on the 'minority' bit) that's fine but I want the arguing to stop now; it's getting personal. That is a DM instruction.
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