Song and Hymm of Requiem and Epic Levels

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silversghost
Posts: 42

Song and Hymm of Requiem and Epic Levels

Post#1 » Sat May 09, 2015 8:35 am

Im sure this has probably been brought up, but on the off chance it might not have. Are there any plans to do something with Requiem for bards? Ive noticed once Ive hit the ER level range that is just immunes on almost everything which is frustrating for caster bards. I get that its a very useful party tool as well but wouldn't it be better if it had some ER usage? Maybe some immunity bypass mechanic through the ER progression, maybe ignore 15%-20% sonic immunity per ER level, capping it at 60-80% by ER4?

Itaasi
Posts: 802

Re: Song and Hymm of Requiem and Epic Levels

Post#2 » Sat May 09, 2015 9:28 am

I have to agree. Requiem is basically a lesser version of any kill-zone AoE cast by an arcane caster (Incendiary Cloud, Evaard's Black Tentacles for example), but the caster must be in the fray for it to do any damage. Beefing it up would allow for it to be a little more useful. It obviously shouldn't be as powerful as the above mentioned spells, though if we look at the fact that it costs a feat to get, it should (objectively) be more powerful. I know that won't happen though.

Brumm
Posts: 2228

Re: Song and Hymm of Requiem and Epic Levels

Post#3 » Sat May 09, 2015 9:35 am

Consider this as a primary defensive ability with a "little" damage on top of it. It is one of the most powerful abilities in game and personally I don't see any space for further improvements. Sonic immunity on mobs is more or less a problem of 2.9-2.11 and is much less common in later chapters. And since you can max out perform without problems on ROT the damage is already pretty high (damage is comparable to a maxized Icestom on level 40). Not to mention that it provides a healing which makes you and your group nearly invincible.

Brumm

silversghost
Posts: 42

Re: Song and Hymm of Requiem and Epic Levels

Post#4 » Sat May 09, 2015 9:42 am

I understand this, Im not proposing a damage or heal INCREASE mealy a mechanic to help at ER levels vs sonic immunities, as a bard that focuses more on music it kinda does effect their gameplay negatively, I am not denying that it is not a powerful ability, but every class has powerful abilities as well, some a bit better than others I will admit.

Edit: And yes, to point out that it requires 21 bard (Cutting out a lot of cross class abuse and making a BAB nightmare) Coupled with the fact it requires 2 feats to get both the offensive and defensive ability, its sitting at a good amount of damage and healing for it. I don't see how you can get it up to 200-300 damage though unless we are talking about a 40th lvl bard, but it really could use some ER love in the resistance bypass department like some of the other casters. This is just my observation as a fresh set of eyes.

Samyx
Posts: 679

Re: Song and Hymm of Requiem and Epic Levels

Post#5 » Sat May 09, 2015 9:55 am

In order t manage sonig immunity, lyric thaumaturge sonig might is great.
However, I do support a ER-scaling for song of requiem. 200 damage per second is uber at level 30, but when facing mobs in 3.18 it is simply ridiculous. A ER-scaling like Perfom + ER* perfom woudl be appreciated, for instance.

silversghost
Posts: 42

Re: Song and Hymm of Requiem and Epic Levels

Post#6 » Sat May 09, 2015 10:08 am

Mkay 1/3rd of a 2 feat, 21 (Edit) Specific class (Edit end) level requirement ability that you now have to cover with 5 levels of another class is kinda ... ridiculous? for how much you have to spend to get to it. And yes, 200 damage that is split between all mobs around is nice at 30, but would taper fast even in the ER1-4 areas. I cant imagine how it is in the 3.18 area.

gazoo
Posts: 296

Re: Song and Hymm of Requiem and Epic Levels

Post#7 » Sat May 09, 2015 10:12 am

Caster Bards need some attention here.

*But Requiem is not one of those areas IMHO.

On my caster Bard, It keeps her alive and is fairly effective on many mobs. The problem is the other spells. Pretty much what you have(EX) is stacked Grease and Burning Pitch (a very effective combo), Sound Burst (modified with various metamagic), and Clap of Thunder/Sonic Might touch attack. You need Lyric Thurm. I think Stormsinger is a waste with max 5 uses of SoV (the ONLY effective Stormsinger ability for 10 levels!); Stormsinger SoV wastes all your valuable songs- unless you like to rest a LOT. Maybe one or two SoV for emergency or very stategic uses. I use UMD and SoV scrolls - not as good but saves my songs. [Consider my Druid (and most Shaman) has 13+ castings of SoV. SoV likely needs a little toning down anyways, but I digress]. So I'd suggest Stormsinger is optional and you can "splash" in something else (MT for fort saves/spells, Barb for fort saves/items, etc etc) if you really want to experiment. High UMD is handy.

Also, fyi - for some reason, if you use your last song, Clap of Thunder becomes relatively little damage. So you need to save 1 song always.

In party you are much more effective. Curse song, Legionaires song, Song of Defence, etc etc. Parties adore you.

That said, a Fighter/Bard is extremely tough. Requiem on it is very very powerful. Personally though, except for the Grease/Pitch stacking with high DCs, SR penetration, and Sonic Might(Lyr Thurge), I have found the Fighter bard's spells are usually just as effective as the full caster once you get into CH3 EX. Keep in mind this is because Sound Burst is the basic effective spell. Mobs most always save(fort saves) or are mind-immune anyways, so DC's are not so important.

_______________________________________________________________

Btw, My Caster Bard has been through 3.18 on EX and was very helpful/welcome to the party(ER4+) and relatively surviveable, even at ER1 ....so never useless in party.

It also soloed (some EX, some normal) all up to 3.15, except the council of 2.11. So definitely playable. Defence is good; Killing mobs is slow as Hell and takes time/patience/strategy and makes some area time limits tricky. Some I had to try a few times to make the time limit.

To expand:
The bard was 10bard, 9MT, 10 LT, 1 Barb and I changed after I was done Ch3 to test 10bard/9LT/10 StormS/1 Barb to compare. I found that I was hardly (if ever) using the StormS SoV in order to save my songs and increase time between rest. I wanted to test how powerful Bard SoV is -It's OK, yet generally not worth resting often and crippling everything else you do well by taking all your songs. Some areas are seemingly made for SoV though(I know this from my Druid's playthrough) and a SoV here and there can quickly clear these areas. I have the steadfast feat and fort saves on both builds are adequate -> decent for things such as worms,beholders and other annoyingly common fort save failures.
Last edited by gazoo on Sat May 09, 2015 12:15 pm, edited 61 times in total.

Brumm
Posts: 2228

Re: Song and Hymm of Requiem and Epic Levels

Post#8 » Sat May 09, 2015 10:23 am

That is something I can understand, gazoo.

Caster bards are not that great but as far as I know, Ghost is thinking about stuff for them already. This might take a while longer because it's hard to boost caster bards without boosting melee bards as well. Not to mention that it should never be the aim to make caster bards comparable to a SS or Sorc/Wiz. They are not supposed to be like them.

adam
Posts: 466

Re: Song and Hymm of Requiem and Epic Levels

Post#9 » Sun May 10, 2015 9:40 am

http://nwn2db.com/build/?215743

if you don't think melee bards are gods among trinitians, you haven't played something like this.

AGhost_7
Posts: 2586

Re: Song and Hymm of Requiem and Epic Levels

Post#10 » Sun May 10, 2015 10:06 am

If people want ER scaling on the damage of hymn, it could be added. I will only agree to this if a save for half damage is added though.

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