Standard Daggerspell Mage

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Kalzanin
Posts: 25

Standard Daggerspell Mage

Post#1 » Sun Jan 07, 2018 8:18 pm

Need final thoughts and advice before I roll this... my major debate is around Race/stats as Yuan-ti vs. Deep Gnome.

I know Daggerspell mages struggle for AC... but the overall stats are worse with Deep Gnome and that's my hesitation.

http://nwn2db.com/build/?281306

Thoughts and critiques welcome

Brumm
Posts: 2020

Re: Standard Daggerspell Mage

Post#2 » Mon Jan 08, 2018 2:40 am

Hey!

My main concern would be that you have not many sneak dices. Sneak dies are your main damage source as a Daggerspell Mage on ROT. Each sneak dice results in 1d12 damage which is even doubled when you have the full dagger spell mage set. This is the character I played a lot on ROT (http://nwn2db.com/build/?204143). He does not get more than autoquicken 7 but that is all what you need to autquicken even maximized Orbs. You need a slightly different level order before LVL 36 if I recall correctly but the class combination is the best I was able to come up with.

The AC is not really high but enough from my experience. HIPS saves your ass when needed. And the damage output is the highest I have ever seen on single hit spells. The highest damage I got was 2k+ damage on a critical hit against a target that was vulnerable to my picked damage type (thats the reason why I wouldn't go for Frost Mage btw. Frostmage overwrites the targets vulnerability as well so you can't abuse cold vulnerability).

Oh, and another thing: I have a rework of Keadrins Rune-Trap Feats in mind. They would fit perfectly for the play style of an Arcane Trickster. I just can't say at the moment when I get the time.

Greetings!
Brumm

Edit: Keep in mind that Arcane Tricksters gets 2times their Sneak Dices as spell sneaks on ROT. So my build has 18d12 sneak bonus damage on LVL 40 (36d12 with the set = 432 extra damage if maximized).

kc2345
Posts: 621

Re: Standard Daggerspell Mage

Post#3 » Mon Jan 08, 2018 9:09 am

Note that with the arcane revision, Orbs gain 2d4 damage per caster level. Factoring in ER bonuses, this is 2.5d4 per basic caster level at ER5.

@Brumm: I think that build was made before the arcane rework? The loss of spell damage from the missing caster levels is fairly significant now, and is not quite compensated by the extra sneak dice (see below). Additionally, it has limitations in that not all casts trigger spell sneak, and that orbs aren't the only spells to use for damage - Ice storms, and other cloud/IGMS offensive spells remain situationally useful, like vs an enemy with Storm Avatar up. Golems are also weaker. Perhaps a revision to something like the blaster-type build suggested below would be stronger considering the spell changes?

I actually play my DSM with a similar build composition as the OP's build. Frostmage isn't there for single target damage - it's there so I can reliably blow apart groups with ice storm, and I do recognise that I am giving up single target firepower to do so. Taking the epic purist feats also lets me cast competitively with non DSM arcanes for a more generalist playstyle - while still enjoying significant daggerspell bonuses and spell sneak (runeword on weapon helps)

That said, I think there are also viable alternatives. Here are 2 examples I can think of.

1) Single target blaster: A Wizard17/Rogue3/DSM10/AT10 would maximise both CL and retain a large number of sneak dice while keeping access to purist feats. It loses HIPs and 3 sneak dice (6d12 damage) compared to the Brumm DSM, but can use teleport to break aggro and gains 9 caster levels after ER multiplication (18d4 + Epic Explosive damge per orb - you actually GAIN damage on maximised sneak orbs due to the Epic Explosive bonus). A golem with 40 CL will greatly help survivability.

2) A high AC defensive alternative: Wizard28/Rogue1/DSM10/Monk1 that would stack monk Wis to AC (6 + base stat mod) and enjoy multiple epic bonus feats at the expense of the firepower bonuses enjoyed by going Frostmage or Arcane trickster. The Wis bonus enjoyed by deep gnomes is also beneficial here, and you can spread stats more evenly.

**Sorc can be substituted for Wizard. Both have their pros and cons that I'm sure you're aware of.
***Substitute rogue with the sneak class of choice :D
Image

Brumm
Posts: 2020

Re: Standard Daggerspell Mage

Post#4 » Mon Jan 08, 2018 2:49 pm

Yes, you are right. My Daggerspell Mage was created before the spell overhaul. Good point!

Edit: Though, personally I would not be happy to loose HIPS.

When I take into account how neglectable spell sneaks from classes are now if I take the spell rework into account, we probably have to make the spell sneaks a bit stronger to encourage the sneak-gameplay style. Ideas are welcome!

Edit2: What about Sorc (15), DMage (10), Dark Lantern (9), Arcane Trickster (6)?
34 CL, Epic Precision, 13d12 Base Sneak Damage, HIPS, Epic Explosive Damage

Kalzanin
Posts: 25

Re: Standard Daggerspell Mage

Post#5 » Mon Jan 08, 2018 6:26 pm

Thank you both for your insights.

I think I am going to go Deep Gnome, Wiz 20, AT 10, Rogue 1, DSM 9 for now.. the 20 wiz allows me one extra bonus feat to ensure I get the Epic arcane casting feats before my gear is fully optimized.I will likely alternate to rogue 3 for extra sneak dice if that ends up suiting me better... but I am feat starved.

I do hope one day that something comes along for some extra AC or a way of getting Hips without gimping the caster levels... as the build looks super squishy on paper.

Min / Maxing my stats so bad - putting them at 9 / 19 / 8 / 18 / 10 /4 ... ultimately allowing me DEX 38 and INT 34 with Easymode, can swap to 36/ 36 if i want in the future.

Kalzanin
Posts: 25

Re: Standard Daggerspell Mage

Post#6 » Mon Jan 08, 2018 6:50 pm

I am going Wizard > Sorc just because of the INT / skill points synergy to be able to reliable handle traps. I would LOVE for it to be a sorc, but there's just too much lost in skills.

Dark Lantern does not give Trapfinding and therefore won't be as useful at getting high level traps / locks., too... and with so many Endgame areas now involving those I do not want to miss out on that loot.

I know we want to go away from Shield AC on sets... but I wish this set had it! I am not sure how else to best obtain survivability without maybe putting TWD line on the set, or some similar defenses.

kc just mentioned DSM requires the full 10 lvls to utilize the set; so I may be back to rogue 3 !

I was going to propose this as an independent idea, and I will post it but here for now- the Autoquicken line is necessary for casters but it severely gimps them when compared to melee. Melee at endgame can reliably nuke mobs for 600-900 damage per round without breaking a sweat. You simply cannot keep up with them without autoquicken. The leveling is arduous casting 1 spell per round... makes gameplay go by very slowly. It's also frustrating in groups even as a full caster without autoquicken, as you simply can't cast fast enough before melee devours your target. I aim as far possible into the back lines, and it's still impossible to keep up without Autoquicken

My proposal would be to simplify the Autoquickens into groupings- as in Autoquicken 0-3, 4-6, etc. So that makes taking them more palpable and adds to the versatility of all casters. The playability is simply not there without the feat line, and the feat line as is is very expensive.

My only other Caster vs. Melee gripe is spell slots. I know, alot of items offer what appears to be TONS of spell slots. Endgame mobs are showing HPs in the 1000's though and it takes alot of casts to kill them. Melee can just continue to endlessly hack/slash their way to victory while casters have to be conservative with how many spells they use per engagement.

One of the biggest reasons I dread trying to roll a Wizard is that while we have alot of spell slots on gear, gear gets shuffled when we change from server to server, or when the game crashes. You reconnect with no active spells, and with non-spontaneous casters you have the need to re-memorize a large chunk of spells. I don't know if it's possible in the code, but if there would be a better way of giving casters more base spell slots that isn't based on gear I feel like some of this problem could be mitigated.

Also, I know I'm droning but I want to be very clear about one point- the changes staff has made to arcane casters is impressive and I am extremely grateful for your time and effort on this front. You have given me a reason to play my favorite character archetype - and it's better than anything the original creators ever envisioned. Thank you for your time and continued efforts

Brumm
Posts: 2020

Re: Standard Daggerspell Mage

Post#7 » Tue Jan 09, 2018 2:53 am

I hear you. All your points are not new to me and totally correct. Please give me some time to discuss a few things with the staff before I reply.

Brumm

Kalzanin
Posts: 25

Re: Standard Daggerspell Mage

Post#8 » Wed Jan 10, 2018 12:35 am

No hurry Brumm... I'm here no matter what unfolds.

I tried playing with the wizard version on the test server... I don't think I can do the spellbook, it's just not for me. I will likely try the split you proposed at some point- I don't know how much of a difference Epic Precision makes as I haven't gotten to test anything fully yet. (I tried on test server but don't have full set on it).

The other sorc version I am looking at is Yuan-ti - Sorc 18 / DSM 10 / AT 10 / Asn 2- this won't give me Trapfinding skills but I can level it without an EXP penalty, and convert to rogue for -20% at the end.

My only other thought to add to viability with split stats would be to question why we have Epic Stoicism and Epic Enlightenment and not have Epic feats that benefit INT / CHA / DEX / etc.

fox
Posts: 120

Re: Standard Daggerspell Mage

Post#9 » Wed Jan 10, 2018 1:20 am

Kalzanin wrote:One of the biggest reasons I dread trying to roll a Wizard is that while we have alot of spell slots on gear, gear gets shuffled when we change from server to server, or when the game crashes. You reconnect with no active spells, and with non-spontaneous casters you have the need to re-memorize a large chunk of spells. I don't know if it's possible in the code, but if there would be a better way of giving casters more base spell slots that isn't based on gear I feel like some of this problem could be mitigated.




You do know about /mspells ??

Kalzanin
Posts: 25

Re: Standard Daggerspell Mage

Post#10 » Wed Jan 10, 2018 12:30 pm

Ahh ! I had forgotten that command! Thanks for the reminder.

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