Making Daggerspell Mages Less Dependent on a Full Set

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kc2345
Posts: 703

Making Daggerspell Mages Less Dependent on a Full Set

Post#1 » Thu Nov 07, 2019 12:30 am

Currently, a Daggerspell mage caster build pretty much needs the full set to be viable versus a non-set or Arcane set caster for 3 reasons:

1) Lack of shield AC without set, meaning a non set Daggerspell will have cripplingly low AC.

2) Difficulty in getting Uncanny dodge without losing caster levels. The set ring provides this essential feat. Not using the set means a single level Cleric or a 2 level investment in SD/Scout/Defender or Barbarian if you want to keep max caster level (which is important). Non DSM arcanes have a lot more flexibility in this regard, as DSM locks down 3/4 classes (Arcane base + sneak base + DSM)

3) Feat starvation. Taking 10 levels of DSM means losing up to 3 Epic Feats, and requires taking useless Weapon Focus and TWF feats. This is alleviated by metamagic (Emp, Maximize) on the set.

Suggestions
1) To make the lack of a set less crippling for a DSM AC-wise, perhaps the level 1 Arcane 'Shield' spell can be modified to grant 4 + CL/6 Shield Bonus AC instead. Alternatively (because Warlock DSMs are technically possible), Shield AC = 2 + DSM Class level can be instituted as a class feature. The shield AC can then be moved away from the set.

To compensate for the weakening of the set's overall power, perhaps a spell equivalent of the Rogue's Epic Precision could be implemented (1/2 sneak dmg vs immune), as DSMs do weak damage vs Sneak/Crit immunes on Live.

2) Add Uncanny Dodge as a class feature at DSM 2. This is a non-spell progression level, so it makes sense to add some features here. The Uncanny Dodge on the set ring can be replaced with Weapon Focus or Improved Critical on Ranged Touch Attacks.

3) I don't think this needs fixing, as DSM does grant some advantages, and some feats can be found on other items. A significant feat cost is fair.

These changes should make a non-set DSM viable, but having the set is still a significant bonus.
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Brumm
Posts: 2253

Re: Making Daggerspell Mages Less Dependent on a Full Set

Post#2 » Thu Nov 07, 2019 2:02 am

1) Changing the Shield spell sounds like a good solution to me; the sacling makes sense too. I'll do that and remove the Shield AC from the set.

2) Sounds like a reasonable idea to me. I want to grant uncanny dodge with a runeword too by the way. Just the time is missing.

When I replace the feat on the ring with something else it might be that I won't change existing rings but just new ones because I am not keen on writing a revision code for it. I have very limited time these days and a mistake in the revision code has the potential to fuck things up in a really impressive way.

3) I agree that there is no need to solve the feat starvation problem. I personally think that it is a good thing if players can't get everything but must decide on which route they wan't to focus on. That gives us a larger variety of possible builds.

addict-ant
Posts: 690

Re: Making Daggerspell Mages Less Dependent on a Full Set

Post#3 » Thu Nov 07, 2019 12:50 pm

Sounds reasonable to me.

Certainly agree about the revision code - the DM's can handle replacement DSM items as they crop up.
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Brownyman
Posts: 256

Re: Making Daggerspell Mages Less Dependent on a Full Set

Post#4 » Thu Nov 07, 2019 2:38 pm

Brumm wrote:2) Sounds like a reasonable idea to me. I want to grant uncanny dodge with a runeword too by the way. Just the time is missing.



This on its own is potentially awesome!

It frees up all sorts of classes and builds :D
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kc2345
Posts: 703

Re: Making Daggerspell Mages Less Dependent on a Full Set

Post#5 » Fri Nov 08, 2019 1:47 am

Sounds good.

A player could probably just use the 'unforge' option to update the ring.

Perhaps Epic Precision could be put in place of Uncanny?

Without it, DaggerSpells actually perform worse than standard arcanes (with staff runeword) vs Crit immunes, even while attacking with their signature RTAs.

This is as a huge chunk of their damage comes from spell sneak.

Without it, the two do similar damage as the +5 CL from the staff Runeword already roughly matches the passive +40 passive RTA dmg from Dual set daggers on Empowered or Maximized Orbs ((3d4 or 8) *1.2 per CL), but DSMs are far behind in AC, feats, non RTA spells like IGMS, and a lack of Time Stop.

Epic Precision would keep DSM performance more consistent by halving the sneak damage loss.
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Brumm
Posts: 2253

Re: Making Daggerspell Mages Less Dependent on a Full Set

Post#6 » Sun Nov 10, 2019 4:48 am

You can even use the unforge GUI to update items. No need for DM intervention.
Changes have been made btw. Check my commit logs for details.

Edit: Oh, KC menionted the unforge GUI already. Anyways: It should be the way to go.

Samyx
Posts: 688

Re: Making Daggerspell Mages Less Dependent on a Full Set

Post#7 » Tue Nov 12, 2019 2:38 am

Hello
I just checked on live server after Brian pushed the changes, and Shield is still giving a flat +4. Description is not updated as well.
Was this reverted ?
Samyx

kc2345
Posts: 703

Re: Making Daggerspell Mages Less Dependent on a Full Set

Post#8 » Tue Nov 12, 2019 8:05 am

Confirmed Samyx's report. Shield spell on Live is only giving a fixed 4 AC.
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Brumm
Posts: 2253

Re: Making Daggerspell Mages Less Dependent on a Full Set

Post#9 » Sat Nov 16, 2019 11:37 am

This should be fixed already

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