Proposed Changes: New EX-Scaling

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Brumm
Posts: 2228

Proposed Changes: New EX-Scaling

Post#1 » Wed Sep 11, 2019 1:40 am

Hello everyone,

like you noticed we rolled the recent bug fix of the EX scaling code back - along with some other changes like the double tag hero monsters - because of player complaints. I started yesterday with a new attempt which I am writing from scratch and I want to include as much feedback in the process as possible. But for the benefit of my salvation I'll only take comments into account that show at least a mimium of thinking and decency. That doesn't mean you shouldn't critize my suggestions because I rather come up with a good scaling than being right about my ideas. But it would be very helpful if we can have this discussion as if we are all men of gift and culture. Thanks in advance!

My current plan is to
a) get a linear scaling per EX level
b) with a reduced impact on lower CR creatures and
c) transfer the reduced scaling over to the reward mechanic.

To achieve b) I wrote a function which scales down values based on the CR of the beefed up creature. Currently 3% of the full EX scaling affects the creature per CR (capped at 100%). So if you have a CR 5 creature and the full EX scaling would add 100 Hitpoints the creature would just get 15 Hitpoints (5 * 3% = 15%). This reduction modifier carries over to the reward mechanic to achieve point c). So if the full EX mode would increase Gold/XP/Dropchances by 100% the increase would just be 15% in the given example. Creatures with a CR of 34+ would get the full 100% EX scaling.

Suggested Scaling

[*] Attributes
Each creature gets 5 attribute points per EX level up to a total bonus of +30. This bonus is not subject to the +12 cap.

Former Scaling:
- 0.5 points per CR

[*] Spellresistance
Each creature gets 5 SR points per level. This bonus stacks with the SR the creature has before the scaling kicks in. Total SR is capped at 52 (40 + 2/EX). So if a creature already has 52 or more SR the EX code won't add anything.

Former Scaling:
- Cap = 40 + EX
- CR31+ = +10SR
- CR26-30 = +8SR
- CR23-25 = +6SR
- CR22 or below: +4SR

[*] Saving Throw
Each creature gets a magical bonus of +3 to all saves per EX level. Please take in mind that this is cumulative with the save bonus creatures get from the attribute scailng. Furhtermore the save bonus is subject to the magical +20 save cap.

Former Sacling:
-(0.2 * CR) + (2 * (EX-1))

[*] Hitpoints
Each creature gets a Hitpoint bonus of (25% + 100) per EX level.

Former Sacling:
(25% + 250) per EX lvl

[*] AC
(...)

Former Scaling:
- Cap CR32+ = 74-76 + (5* (EX lvl -1))
- Cap CR26+ = 66-70 + (5* (EX lvl -1))
- Cap CR25- = 62-66 + (5* (EX lvl -1))
- Bonus for bosses with CR 32+ = +10
- Bonus for CR 32+ = +8
- Bonus for CR 31- = +6

[*] Damage
(...)

[*] BAB / AB
(...)

[*] CL/DC bonus
(...)

[*] Harsh Casting
(...)
Last edited by Brumm on Wed Sep 11, 2019 3:30 pm, edited 1 time in total.

Gritoit
Posts: 9

Re: Proposed Changes: New EX-Sacling

Post#2 » Wed Sep 11, 2019 2:59 am

These are my suggestions:

Suggested Scaling

[*] Attributes
Each creature gets 5 attribute points per EX level up to a total bonus of +30. This bonus is not subject to the +12 cap. (This works for me)

[*] Spellresistance
Each creature gets 5 SR points per level. This bonus stacks with the SR the creature has before the scaling kicks in. Total SR is capped at 52 (40 + 2/EX). So if a creature already has 52 or more SR the EX code won't add anything.
(This works for me)

[*] Saving Throw
Each creature gets a magical bonus of +3 to all saves per EX level. Please take in mind that this is cumulative with the save bonus creatures get from the attribute scaling. Furthermore, the save bonus is subject to the magical +20 save cap.
(This works for me)

[*] Hitpoints
Each creature gets a Hitpoint bonus of (20% + 100) per EX level. (I changed this slightly to reduce extra lengthy fights at high levels)

[*] Regen
1% health per EX each round. (Slight boost to regen but not enough to be overly annoying)

[*] Conceal
2% conceal per EX

[*] Immunities / DR
2 flat DR per EX
2% immunity (all damage types) per EX

[*] AC
Flat 2 + 2 per EX caped to not increase armor above 105 (Not sure if this is the right cap point, but I do feel that it should be capped to prevent creatures that are unkillable for fighter types)

[*] Damage
1d6 of each elemental damage per EX (Did all the elements so it is well-rounded damage)
1d12 physical damage per EX (Wanted to increase physical damage so the mobs crits are increased)

[*] BAB / AB
1 BAB per EX (Kept this a small increase. Beserkers already kill me easy enough lol)

[*] CL/DC bonus
2 CL per EX (This should allow spells that are more difficult to save against.)

[*] Harsh Casting
Harsh Casting at ER 3
Epic Harsh Casting at ER 6

[*] Dispel Magic on hit
At EX6 mobs gain dispel magic on hit. Added to the weapon through a similar mechanic to Finishing Stroke. Cooldown of 12 seconds. (I want to make EX6 an extra step above all the others and a true challenge)



[*] Double and triple tagged mobs
EX3 + gives a 40% chance of single tagged mobs and a 10% chance of double-tagged mobs.
EX6 gives an 80% chance of single tagged mobs, a 15% chance of double-tagged mobs and a 5% chance of triple-tagged mobs.

Each tag increases the CR of the mobs by +2 CR.
So + 2 CR for a single tag
+4 for double
+6 for triple

Tag modifiers can only be of different types.

The types are Damage shields (Shining and other damage shields), Defensive (Swift, regen, etc.), Offensive (New category), and Special (New Catagory)

Shield suggestions:
New tag (Veiled) for adding Epic Warding type protection on to a mob

Defensive suggestions:
New tag (Hardy) that adds 20% immunity vs all damage sources

Offensive suggestions:
Besrek should be included here since it increases AB.
New tag Armor (Shredding) - 1 AC and -1 to all saves per hit/spell capped at 3.
New tag (Anti-mage) 2% added spell failure per hit/spell capped at 6%
New tag (Brutal) + 10% all damage types and +1 to crit modifier
New tag (Flurry) Gives AQ1 - 9 and flurry (as per monk) type attacks regardless of weapon

Special suggestions:
New tag (Bomb) mob explodes on death doing 20% of characters current health.
New tag (Undeath) mob revives at 50% health the first time you kill it.
New tag (Splitting) Every 20% damage the creature takes creates a hunk of flesh that has 20% of the original mobs health. If this hunk of flesh isn't killed within 10 rounds in creates a copy of the original with different tags.
New tag (Chaos) Mob randomly teleports every 10 rounds.
New tag (Double vision) Mob appears as two targets only one of which takes damage. The one that takes damage changes randomly once every 1d6 rounds.
New tag (Morphing) If mob isn't killed after being engaged in combat 20 rounds it randomly morphs into a mob up to 2 CR high than it was. This mob gets different tags than the original.


I know some of these ideas won't make it but I wanted to put all my crazy and interesting ideas out there for people to consider. I think by adding some new tags especially the special ones players will have to be more active in their decisions. Prioritizing certain mobs based on tag combinations. In team play, this should make chatting via voice more important and rewarding since attacks will need to be coordinated.
Last edited by Gritoit on Wed Sep 11, 2019 5:34 am, edited 2 times in total.

FFF
Posts: 34

Re: Proposed Changes: New EX-Sacling

Post#3 » Wed Sep 11, 2019 4:10 am

Attributes:
+2/EX, up to +12 on EX6

SR:
40 +2/EX sounds good

saves:
+3/EX sounds good too

HP:
+100 is too high for low-level. and u can't balance it for low+high lvls at the same time.
I think +50% per ER will be OK.

AC:
+2/EX, not higher.
because +1 AB costs 1 feat(avarage) for characters

Damage:
+3d12/EX(resistable), pircing/bludg/slash/magic/divine/positive

AB:
+2/EX same as AC

CL/DC:
+2 DC/EX

Harsh:
make it 20% base and +5%/EX, up to 50%

Samyx
Posts: 679

Re: Proposed Changes: New EX-Sacling

Post#4 » Wed Sep 11, 2019 4:12 am

Hi
I can only suggest to keep server 1 as it is for now.
For other places,
About the suggestions from Brumm, Gritoit, Fff, i'd say they represent a very nice addition to the ex scaling variety and unpredictability (you dare ex6, now face the unexpected triple consequences) provided they can be implemented by Brumm's magic coding.
Samyx

cMEfaiL
Posts: 65

Re: Proposed Changes: New EX-Sacling

Post#5 » Wed Sep 11, 2019 7:23 am

As KC said i can't comment on exact numbers without the current ex mode ones for comparison.Also we should all be aware that linear scaling will have harder impact on lower lvl content since for example 30 str on mob which has base of 12 is bigger boost than on mob which has base of 40.Again i am for the idea that EX mode is extreme difficulty not easy reward mode so the question here is do we rly want / need lvling groups which will go above ex2-3 ?

bab/ab boost - do we want mobs which will get more attacks per round with higher ex mode ?

ac boost - do we boost 2 different types of ac (armor / dodge ; deflection / natural etc . ) or the plan is smtn else ?

CL/ DC boost - do we want mobs like Vera in 3.18 which do 200+ on 1 missile from igms ? and mobs like eon shit which casts tenser's and gets ac so high that even rogue set users have problems hitting it ?

Harsh caster - the only thing i am sure about for myself is that harsh caster should mob feat not ex feat i don't how hard it would be to simply adjust high end contend mobs have it by default.

bsb5652
Site Admin
Posts: 2780
Contact:

Re: Proposed Changes: New EX-Sacling

Post#6 » Wed Sep 11, 2019 9:37 am

Harsh caster - the only thing i am sure about for myself is that harsh caster should mob feat not ex feat i don't how hard it would be to simply adjust high end contend mobs have it by default.


I already flag high end mobs directly with harsh caster, so it may be just a function of hitting the cases were we dont and remove it from EX as you suggested.
Brian Bloom

Realms of Trinity Executive Producer & Game Creator
http://www.realmsoftrinity.com

Brumm
Posts: 2228

Re: Proposed Changes: New EX-Sacling

Post#7 » Wed Sep 11, 2019 3:15 pm

Just for clarification:

@Samyx: Yeah, I got it. You want spiders crypt to be the bugged place it was: EX6 rewards for non EX creatures. Thanks for the input.

@cMEfail: I guess I didn't explain my plan too well: We would have a linear base scaling like - just to throw some numbers around - +5 AC per EX level for a total of +30AC on EX6. This linear base scaling would be modified based on the creatures CR with the function I described. So a creature with CR 5 wouldn't get the full +30AC bonus but just 15% of it (3%/CR = 15% -> +4AC). That way the impact on lower CR mobs would be reduced significantly.

On AC I still need to work. The post currently just reflects what I have already coded.

@FFF: Same as for cMEfail. The +100 bonus HP wouldn't apply for low level mobs. A CR 5 creature would just get 15 per EX level (5*3% of full EX scaling). A CR 10 creauture would get 30 (10*3% of full EX scaling) per EX level.

I'll add the former EX rules to the main post to help you discussing the suggestions.

lavda
Posts: 20

Re: Proposed Changes: New EX-Sacling

Post#8 » Wed Sep 11, 2019 3:45 pm

Old rules read to be fine.
Why is this the issue again?
FFF complaining there is nothing to kill with 110AB 110AC full set builds? :D

Maybe lets define the problem (here so it is not scattered).
And define what is best how it should be (what the result should look like, for example for average player with 75AB 75AC).

If some of this is not clear, like it seems that we are not sure of either, just schedule it for 2020 review.

Zippy_Zaboo
Posts: 32

Re: Proposed Changes: New EX-Sacling

Post#9 » Wed Sep 11, 2019 6:22 pm

Great idea. My comments below.

Suggested Scaling

[*] Attributes
Each creature gets 5 attribute points per EX level up to a total bonus of +30. This bonus is not subject to the +12 cap.

This seems pretty high unless you either force a distribution according to normal stats or otherwise cap by CL. if you have something jump from dex18 to dex48 that seems pretty harsh for a lower CL mob....? If you add attribute points in a way that keep the original attribute distribution of the non-EX mob it would work fine though.

[*] Spellresistance
Each creature gets 5 SR points per level. This bonus stacks with the SR the creature has before the scaling kicks in. Total SR is capped at 52 (40 + 2/EX). So if a creature already has 52 or more SR the EX code won't add anything.

K. I understand the spell issue is probably the hardest thing to balance, will see how this works.

What would be nice, never hurts to ask, is a mechanic which would scale spell damage with SR a bit rather than making it a resist/nonresist issue. To use an example, I have a level 30 caster. Now, level 30 is nowhere near max. But still--30 levels is nothing to sneer at! It's one thing to do a lot less damage than someone with CL40, but it shouldn't do ZERO damage all the time. Probably naught to be done, though...

[*] Saving Throw
Each creature gets a magical bonus of +3 to all saves per EX level. Please take in mind that this is cumulative with the save bonus creatures get from the attribute scailng. Furhtermore the save bonus is subject to the magical +20 save cap.

This seems a bit too high, can't explain why, but i guess we'll know soon.

[*] Hitpoints
Each creature gets a Hitpoint bonus of (25% + 100) per EX level.

Calculated before or after you add things like tough-modifier and up to 30 attribute points?

cMEfaiL
Posts: 65

Re: Proposed Changes: New EX-Sacling

Post#10 » Wed Sep 11, 2019 6:30 pm

I rly don't understand why everybody is complaining about +30 attributes have u ever checked what stats high end mobs have ? I'll clarify for ppl that haven't done that all high end mobs have maxed ab attribute and almost maxed con. The only thing they'll gain is some saves and here mb we should focus on the bonus saves they get as separated ex function.
Sorry Brumm i read your post between the lines it seems i still don't rly mind that ex6 will be harder it's supposed to be and i hope that as always the dev staff team will find a solution for painfully slow solo xp gain after the rework.
I don't see answer on the other question i've put in the post up which is kind-a strange nobody has thoughts on them or they are to simple / not important ?

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