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Proposed Changes - Healing Spells

Posted: Thu Aug 15, 2019 8:01 am
by Brumm
Hello everybody,

like some of you probably read we lost our code of the former heal spells so we have to rewrite it. Since this is a good opportunity to get your feedback on what good values are I wanted to open a discussion here. Just let me know what you think the healing spells should look like. The healing spells we need to rewrite are:

[*] Cure Minor Wounds
[*] Cure Light Wounds (Mass)
[*] Cure Moderate Wounds (Mass)
[*] Cure Serious Wounds (Mass)
[*] Cure Critical Wounds (Mass)
[*] Heal (Mass)

Thanks in advance!
Brumm

Re: Proposed Changes - Healing Spells

Posted: Thu Aug 15, 2019 8:49 am
by FFF
As a player who played healer on events most of all(last 6 mounth), I'll tell my opinion:
1) Make less difference between level 5 and level 9 spells. Rest every 5 mins(with AQ healing) is not so funny for people. It will not be imbalanced, other low-level spells are powerful too, healing should not be weak.
2) Radius should be very huge, but not for full map as before, because it's OP too.

So, my version of spells:
lvl 5 - CL1+Heal*2 (250/spell, 500/round)
lvl 6 - CL2+Heal*2 (300/spell, 600/round)
lvl 7 - CL4+Heal*2 (400/spell, 800/round)
lvl 8 - CL6+Heal*2 (500/spell, 1000/round)
lvl 9 - CL10+Heal*2 (700/spell, 1400/round)
* numbers are correct to players with 50CL and 100 heal.

Radius - make it 3x bigger then SoV, cast only on self(for all spells). Healer should be near the party but not in the middle of battle.

About "Cure Minor Wounds"(lvl 0 spell): heal 10+CL health. If target have low HP it will be better than Virtue(+10 HP) but it will not be possible to use to stack HP(as Virtue, +50/cast)

Re: Proposed Changes - Healing Spells

Posted: Thu Aug 15, 2019 10:17 am
by kc2345
Idea is to make the heal skill very important by scaling the amount healed by both CL, spell level and heal skill.

[*] Cure Minor Wounds

50 + (Heal Skill × Caster Level ÷ 100) × 4
Max 250 at 100 Heal and 50 CL

[*] Cure Light Wounds (Mass)

75 + (Heal Skill × Caster Level ÷ 100) × 5
Max 325 at 100 Heal and 50 CL

[*] Cure Moderate Wounds (Mass)

100 + (Heal Skill × Caster Level ÷ 100) × 6
Max 400 at 100 Heal and 50 CL

[*] Cure Serious Wounds (Mass)

125 + (Heal Skill × Caster Level ÷ 100) × 7
Max 475 at 100 Heal and 50 CL

[*] Cure Critical Wounds (Mass)

150 + (Heal Skill × Caster Level ÷ 100) × 8
Max 550 at 100 Heal and 50 CL

[*] Heal (Mass)
200 + (Heal Skill × Caster Level ÷ 100) × 10
Max 700 at 100 Heal and 50 CL

This formula means your heal skill now determines the % scaling your heal spells get, making it critical to get good healing numbers.

For example, a 50 CL caster with only 50 heal skill would heal only 450 with a Heal and 350 with a Cure Critical Wounds instead of 700/550. One with no heal skill at all would heal only the baseline values of 200/150.

This rewards players more for having high heal skill.

Re: Proposed Changes - Healing Spells

Posted: Thu Aug 15, 2019 12:05 pm
by kc2345
Also, maybe the Inflict/Harm line of spells could scale similarly?

They're really weak now.

Re: Proposed Changes - Healing Spells

Posted: Thu Aug 15, 2019 12:37 pm
by Fraggle
General i Play Healer several Years and cant count anymore, how many Groups i carried through Events and Dungeons. I remember good old Days before Eon, Vault, BDL and DL. That times i played Shaman and in Groups often the healing part. Shamans max healing was round about 750 and even at those old Days, was not satisifed with Shamans healing Ability and decided to make my first pure FS Healer. At that times in high lvl Parties, was often played with 2 Nature Healers. The pure Healer replaced only 2 Natures Healer with 1 FS Healer. From my experience i got over the years i can only say that you are unable to keep a 750 HP Toon ( ER4 Fullsetuser ) alive in serious fights. How you will protect a LVL 40 Damage Dealer only with 700 HP per cast ? Eventserver EXmobs can deal such insane Damage and you cant counter them with 700 per Healspell.
There are some Reasons why Players believe Healers are OP but in fact it has nothing to do with Healer and healing Ability itself. When you play Events with a lvl 40 Healer which is balanced for a Gap between ER0 27 LVL Toon and LVL 40 Toon, so round about lvl 34 you always will get the impression you can do what you want and survive all with Healer. Same like playing with Groups at non Eventserver ( or Lower LVL Areas at Eventserver ) with a lvl 40 Healer.
Nerfng Heal will only lead back to times when bigger Groups played with 2 Healers.
We made with OGuild all Areas on EX6 and it was very often very hard and would be impossible with a Heal Cap of 700.
Why Developers wanna hurt small Exhunt Challenge Groups.
When Someone partied the last time with more than 5 Players easily and quick?

I simple vote for no Nerf on Heal!

Re: Proposed Changes - Healing Spells

Posted: Thu Aug 15, 2019 1:45 pm
by Lady Seline
I would suggest we balance for an assumed heal skill less than 100.

Basic max ranks class skill is 43. I highly doubt most healers take epic and basic skill focus (heal) atm for +3 and +10

Sure, they may get some gear with +heal ranks bonus, but its not guaranteed, so hitting that +50 magic bonus cap on top of that 43 is pretty hard. Should we not aim for a presumed skill rank level of say.... 75? Then those who take effort to get more benefit with very strong heals but less well equipped beginner healers arent struggling?


Side note: How about a new feat that requires epic skill focus (heal) that when posessed enables and affect on all healing spells have a small regen / HoT component after cast, so you have to use less spells, and will take the pressure off when laggy, etc?

In case I'm not explaining well EG:

Cure light spell description:
"Heals for 1D8+Heal ranks/2+CL (no max). If you posess the "Insert cool feat name here" feat, it will apply a buff that will heal for an additional CL healing for the next X rounds. This buff will not stack but will be overwritten/renewed by more powerful effects."

N.B. all numbers are placeholders, merely an example, and are probably terible. Pls ask a person who's healed for better numbers.

Re: Proposed Changes - Healing Spells

Posted: Thu Aug 15, 2019 1:47 pm
by Zippy_Zaboo
I don't run healers nearly as often as those two, but I agree: if it's a high level group, there have been plenty of times when I am spamming mass heal as fast as I can and am barely keeping up (or not keeping up) with the level of damage being dealt. If you nerf healer points per heal, then events are going to take an interesting turn for the worse I think, and/or will require multiple healers working in concert, which seems almost impossible to do.

It's a high powered game. You can't have players and casters that can do thousands of damage, hitting monsters with tens (or hundreds) of thousands of hitpoints, and who are being hit with attacks that can do thousands of damage... and cap healing at a few hundred points/cast.

If you REALLY wanted to limit it, and I'm not sure you should, then you could choose to put more emphasis on heal skill, so (for example) rather than a level 9 being CL*10 + Heal*2, you could have CL*6 + Heal*4, or some other combination. That would still allow for focused healers but would cut down quite a bit on the folks who can cast a l9 divine spell but who have bad wisdom and heal investment.

You could also change the mechanic entirely, and somehow (a free L30 feat choice?) allow divines to choose between a points-based heal and a percentage-based heal. Then you get light-serious-critical-heal-resto percentages as (for example) 15-35-55-75-100% max w/ L50 and 100 heal skill, scaled down for lower levels. Upsides might be you can do a lot more healing with high level fighters, 75% can be a lot of HP%. But downsides are that you can never heal 1-100% with any mass spell, no matter how low the HP are, so it makes it harder to heal the important arcanes etc. It would make strategy interesting to have that option.

anyway, good luck.

that said, speaking only for myself, I think it's OK to possibly nerf whole-map-effect healing. It makes less sense to be able to heal a toon we can't even see. For better or worse it will force groups to stay closer, though, not sure if that will make more lag. I would still make it extra long range and huge size and possibly add a "healer themself is always included in heal spell" tag, if it exists. If you lose full-map it would also be nice if it would occasionally work against undead, at least to some extent.

Re: Proposed Changes - Healing Spells

Posted: Thu Aug 15, 2019 1:53 pm
by FFF
kc2345 wrote:[*] Cure Minor Wounds

50 + (Heal Skill × Caster Level ÷ 100) × 4
Max 250 at 100 Heal and 50 CL

250 Healing for level 0 spell?
And healing*CL will be hard to balance.

Re: Proposed Changes - Healing Spells

Posted: Thu Aug 15, 2019 6:43 pm
by Samyx
kc2345 wrote:Also, maybe the Inflict/Harm line of spells could scale similarly?

They're really weak now.


Yes, that line of spells need to be strong, so FS/CL can use them. More for evil chars

Re: Proposed Changes - Healing Spells

Posted: Thu Aug 15, 2019 7:16 pm
by kc2345
If you look at the proposed numbers as a whole, this is actually a boost on the lower level heals and a reduction on the higher level ones to keep the difference between a Mass CLW and a Mass Heal somewhat reasonable - instead of a total nerf. Don't just focus on the maximum heal of the highest heal spell, and overlook Mass Cure X Wounds.

Also, take a look at the tooltip formula - if you do the math, you can see that if Healing were working as intended, healing would generally be a lot weaker.

Also, remember that healing numbers are hardcapped by player HP, as overhealing is wasted healing. So for Fraggle's example of a 750 HP ER4 toon, any heal value over 750 is essentially worthless. A typical 40 player has somewhere between 700 (poorly geared, low Con) to 2000 (raging Barbarian) HP - so heals need to be scaled appropriately.

That said, I'm perfectly open to adjusting the numbers to something Brumm and players feel is fairer.

@FFF - I don't see a problem with making a level 0 spell not completely useless. Remember in this server that a player can instant drink a G. Resto potion with no cooldown.

@Lady Seline - For a somewhat serious healer, A low ball estimate of Heal Skill would be:

43 Base + 2 Wis mod + 10 heal skill book from Trinity bookstore + 4 G Hero potion + 22 gear (if everything only had +2 heal forged on it) = 81

Wis casters can easily get +20 Wis mod healing, and gear for healer classes can go up to +10 skill per piece.

Hence, balancing them around a bare minimum of 90 skill or so would be more fair, since that is a number reachable by most. The non scaling static part of the heals I proposed is to cater to non 40 levelling healers who would not have such high skill/CL, and to make Cure X Wounds/Heal potions not totally useless.

@Zippy - I also like the idea of a minimum % healing. Maybe add a minimum of "Healed amount/10"% to each of the spells? "If this spell would heal less than X% of the target's HP, it instead heals X%" This would make a raging barbarian a lot tougher as they get healed for more.

So for example, under the formula I proposed, a 50 CL/100 heal skill would heal for 700, min 70%.

So this heals for 700 for any ally with up to 1,000 HP base. For a raging barbarian ally with 2,000 HP, this spell will heal up to 1,400 HP instead.

This % healing thing could alternatively be implemented as a feat. (Oh hello, Augment Healing!)