PROPOSED CHANGE: Animal Companion

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kc2345
Posts: 745

Re: PROPOSED CHANGE: Animal Companion

Post#41 » Fri Apr 19, 2019 9:15 pm

The Bear is interesting in that he has huge damage and many attacks, but is fairly inaccurate with his swipes. This makes him very dangerous in situations where his AB is highly buffed. While this is fine in a mixed/large group with multiple players, I think it needs to be toned down for a solo player with his companion.

I do support an overall reduction of the Bear's AB (to about mid 90s or so full buffed by a solo player), but would like the AB buffing capacity of the 3 classes to be tighter, so balance isn't as problematic.

Looking at the 3 companion classes:

Druids buff AB via the following spells:
Nature's Avatar (+10 AB/Dmg, 6s/CL)
Nature's Favor (+5 AB/Dmg)
G. Magic Fang (+5 AB/Dmg)
Awaken (+2 AB)
Reduce Animal (+1 AB)
G. Heroism (+4 AB, from item)

Total: +27 AB

I'm not sure how Browny's bear gets to 116 AB with that, since 60 BAB + 20 Str + 27 (Buffs) + 1 Haste = 108 AB (8 AB unaccounted for, maybe Browny has some insight?)

In contrast, Rangers grant the following:
Aid (+1 AB)
G. Magic Fang (+5 AB/Dmg)
Insignia of Blessing (+1 AB)
Nature's Favor (+5 AB/Dmg)
Reduce Animal (+1 AB)
G. Heroism (+4 AB, from item)

Total: +17 AB

Clerics:
Bless (+4 AB)
Aid (+1 AB)
Prayer (+1 AB)
Recitation (+2 AB)
G. Magic Weapon (+10 AB, but limited to only one of the Bear's weapons)
G. Heroism (+4 AB, from item)

Total: +22 AB to one weapon, +12 AB to others

So looking at the situation, directly nerfing the Bear's BAB by a large margin while not changing anything else would bring the Druid bear in line, but make it really weak for the Ranger/Cleric.

A huge chunk of all 3 classes's bonus AB is coming from the Bear having weapons with no innate AB bonus whatsoever. Giving the Bear a weapon with a scaling bonus of +1/4 levels (Max +10) AB, while decreasing BAB by 10 could be a solution. Weapon AB bonuses don't stack with the Enhance Bonuses of G. Magic Fang/G. Magic Weapon. (not 100% sure about how G. Magic Fang is implemented, but is true if it works by giving the weapon an EB).

This lowers buffed AB by 5 for Rangers/Druids, and lowers buffed main weapon AB by 10 for clerics, while keeping unbuffed AB the same. (D: +22, R: +12, C: +12). G. Magic Fang/Weapon will still remain relevant due to their damage component.

This makes AB more in line. (50 (nerfed BAB) + 20 (Str) + 10 (Weapon Bonus) +1 (Haste) + Buffs = 81 + Buffs), making it 93 for the Ranger/Cleric, and 103 for the Druid.

If the Druid's Bear is still too strong, Nature's Avatar could also be changed to add 20 damage per hit instead of 10 AB/10 Damage. This puts all 3 classes at +12 AB, while still keeping the spell relevant/powerful (81 + 12 = 93 AB)

Druids still have the best pets due to significantly better damage boosting enhancements (Flame Weapon, Jagged Tooth, Nature's Avatar) than the cleric, and better defensive buffs than the ranger (Death Ward, Energy Immunity), but the differences in pet AB are lessened.
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Brownyman
Posts: 269

Re: PROPOSED CHANGE: Animal Companion

Post#42 » Sat Apr 20, 2019 1:33 am

No idea on why Bear gets to 116AB!

i deliberately didnt cast the ones that reduced AB.

Wonder if full nature set pet boost works as well.

When i get back today i'll try and figure out why its higher, unless its the hidden scripted feats?
do they get weapon focus or prowess? current feat list on their char sheet is very small.
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konst3d
Posts: 632

Re: PROPOSED CHANGE: Animal Companion

Post#43 » Thu May 02, 2019 4:36 am

kc2345 wrote:A pseudocode for the scaling can look something like this (I am terrible with nwscript syntax, so have no way of providing actually usable code)

Code: Select all

//Execute script on companion summon
//1st part of script defines the universal baselines based on the summoner level.
If companion == telthor
   level = (Shaman Level – 3) + (Lion of Talisid Level) + (Paladin Level – 4, if exalted tracker) + feats
else
   level = (Druid Level) + (Cleric Level, if Animal Domain) + (Ranger Level – 3) + (Lion of Talisid Level) + (Paladin Level – 4, if Exalted Tracker) + Feats
   BaseHP = F(level)
   BaseAC = F(level) etc for all the basic statistics
   Givefeat = "All universal baseline feats"

//Next, comes the 2nd part of the code where the companion type specific modifiers are applied to the baselines and assigned to the companion
If companion == bear
SetHP = BaseHP x 1.5
SetAC = BaseAC + 5
SetBAB = BaseBAB etcetc
   If level>20
      givefeat QuakeShock
else IF companion == wolf
   SetHP = BaseHP
   SetAC = BaseAC etcetc


In this code, BaseHP and BaseAC are not functions, but rather Integer values that are scaled based on the level of the summoner. They are assigned to the companion via SetHP and SetAC etc, with or without a companion-type specific multiplier or additive bonus.


Just noticed, that telthor scaling code doesn't counts animal domain clerics - a mistake or not?
Also, on telthors - I think they should be a copy of the druid's wolf pet + concealment and DR\cold iron, to reflect their spirit nature. Also, wiki says, they should be immune to poison, disease, knockdown, critical hits, and sneak attack.
https://nwn2.fandom.com/wiki/Telthor
Magic is impressive, but now Minsc leads! Swords for everyone!

konst3d
Posts: 632

Re: PROPOSED CHANGE: Animal Companion

Post#44 » Thu May 02, 2019 5:02 am

Brumm
I was told that you want to make telthors inferior to other animals. I think it's not a good idea, here is why:
You have to sacrifice a feat to have this companion.
It will be anyway 4 levels below your character and you will have to sacrifice 1 more feat to fix this.
Clerics (another class that has OPTIONAL animal companion), can have a pet of the same power level as druid have, without any additional feats.
And finally, SS spell list is very limited, so to take animal buffs, player will have to sacrifice another spells.
Counting all this, I think making telthors inferior to other animals will make them very unpopular option for SS players - sacrifice a lot for reduced power animal.

edited:
Also, if kc is right, animal domain cleric levels doesn't count for telthor progression. This fact itself, sounds like a major power level fall for telthors - no clerical buffs.
I think no need to make them even more weak.
Magic is impressive, but now Minsc leads! Swords for everyone!

Brumm
Posts: 2339

Re: PROPOSED CHANGE: Animal Companion

Post#45 » Thu May 02, 2019 12:05 pm

I think giving them the Wolve companion with some concealment makes a lot of sense.

konst3d
Posts: 632

Re: PROPOSED CHANGE: Animal Companion

Post#46 » Thu May 02, 2019 3:28 pm

Yes, regular wolf sounds good. I hope some concealment means 50%? Because otherwise it will look quite strange - golem (big and clumsy chunk of metal) has 50% and semitransparent spirit\ghost - hasn't. :)

Also, am I the only one who hates regular animals models - bear, wolf, others... ? Is it possible to replace them with dire models from druid wildshape models? Looks much better as for me.
Magic is impressive, but now Minsc leads! Swords for everyone!

Brumm
Posts: 2339

Re: PROPOSED CHANGE: Animal Companion

Post#47 » Fri May 03, 2019 12:53 am

I did that for the bear already. Will see what I can do when I get some freetime. Hopefully on the weekend.

konst3d
Posts: 632

Re: PROPOSED CHANGE: Animal Companion

Post#48 » Fri May 03, 2019 8:07 am

That's awesome, thanks a lot. Old bear model was not good. :)
Well, I know you are pretty busy, but one more idea for SS and telthors (was born in discord).
A feat tat will replace theltor wolf with telthor bear! Something like "dinosaur companion" for anybody else, but only for SS. Bear could be a regular druids bear with a bit upgraded AC\damage\immunities and MotB Okku model.
Magic is impressive, but now Minsc leads! Swords for everyone!

Tom D
Posts: 40

Re: PROPOSED CHANGE: Animal Companion

Post#49 » Tue May 21, 2019 12:01 am

Brumm, if you have time to drop a rod on Tom D’s account I will do some testing as well.

Brumm
Posts: 2339

Re: PROPOSED CHANGE: Animal Companion

Post#50 » Sat May 25, 2019 5:42 am

Tom D wrote:Brumm, if you have time to drop a rod on Tom D’s account I will do some testing as well.


Sorry for not responding earlier. I have been pretty busy in the last weeks.
I tried to give you a rod today but my server remote control seems to be broken. I'll give you a rod as soon as it is fixed.

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