Proposed Change - Arcane Golems

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Brumm
Posts: 2136

Re: Proposed Change - Arcane Golems

Post#31 » Fri Mar 29, 2019 2:33 am

Just a quick info about an upcoming change a player suggested to me:

I am going to change the HP bonus of the Abjuration Feats to be percent based. Basic and Greater Abjuration will increase the Barriers HP by 25% each, Epic Abjuration Focus by 50%. For a dedicated caster this won't make a difference. Just if you have low caster level you will feel the effect. And Red Wizards will get a solid boost :D.

kc2345
Posts: 655

Re: Proposed Change - Arcane Golems

Post#32 » Fri Mar 29, 2019 7:55 pm

I've been testing the OTHER arcane golem - the Mirror Golem.

Observations:
At 40 golem levels with mastery 3, it has 2600 HP, 88 regen, 106 AC, 65% Conceal and 30% Immunity to all damage.
Overall durability is at a good level. AC isn't spectacular, but it is offset by the high HP and conceal. The 30% damage immunity helped too. It's by no means invulnerable, but will not die to a hefty sneeze from a hostile mob anymore.

Damage is not so good.

1-2 + 26 base, with 4 random dice ranging from 1d4 to 6d12. Thus, it can do between 4d4 to 24d12 bonus damage. Resting and resummoning is my current tactic to get one with a decent damage dice.

AB is 101, but it lacks Blind Fight, so performs poorly vs concealed mobs, missing more often than not.

Suggestions:
1) Scale the Mirror Golem to the ER modded caster level for internal consistency. Remove caster level overscaling. This will help arcanes get some golem progression through the ERs instead of having it stuck at 30 through all 4 ERs. Whether it should also factor in Conjuration specialized Red Wizards is another debatable point.

2) Add Blind Fight, so performance is more consistent vs concealed and non-concealed mobs. There is a huge drop-off in performance without this feat.

3) Standardize elemental damage dice. I am thinking somewhere around 1d6 per 4 CL added to each of the 4 elemental types. So a CL 50 golem would have 12d6 added for each elemental type.

4) Bracer Golem runeword rework. Perhaps make it add 10 regen to Epic Warding? (since people who took it for the old Mithral Golem should benefit still). For the Mirror Golem, an additional 15% conceal feels too much, as linearly scaling conceal exponentially scales durability. Going from 65% to 80% conceal makes the Mirror Golem virtually untouchable, especially given an additonal 10% immunity. Suggest capping the Conceal at 65% @Mastery 3. Mastery 4 could scale other stats as per usual.
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kc2345
Posts: 655

Re: Proposed Change - Arcane Golems

Post#33 » Fri Mar 29, 2019 11:56 pm

I tested the new Epic Warding feat on my Daggerspell.

Appears to work as described, but with the summon slot freed up to throw shadow sims around now.

A visual display on HP left would be useful, as I can see the Ward regenerating 60 HP/round in the combat log, but cannot see it's HP.

Overall a buff to arcanes, as the slight loss in HP/regen and extra feat cost are far more than offset by being able to conjure shadow sims again.
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Brumm
Posts: 2136

Re: Proposed Change - Arcane Golems

Post#34 » Sat Mar 30, 2019 5:21 am

Regarding Epic Warding: You are killing me. I asked you guys if you wan't to keep the HP bar and the only feedback I got was the HP bar is not neccessary / not useful / strange so I changed the whole thing to work like it does now even if I prefered to keep the HP bar personally. And I told you that it would not block the summon slot anymore if we go the new route without the HP bar. Anyways. I don't want to go back to the former solution because the one we have now works fine as it seems. Though, since I don't like half baked development - I did that too often in the past - I'll invest some more time to get a better solution than we have. But I can't promise anything.

And regarding the balancing: I did not wan't to make arcanes even stronger. I wanted to make Epic Warding slightly weaker than the Mithral Golem because that dude was way OP. If I didn't achieved that already, I'll further tone the feat down.

Regarding Mirror Golem: Not the main thing on my the list at the moment but I noted your suggestions. I can take a look at it when I am done with Epic Warding.

Lady Seline
Posts: 39

Re: Proposed Change - Arcane Golems

Post#35 » Sat Mar 30, 2019 6:48 am

Brumm wrote:@Brian: I am working on it already. Should be done soon; hopefully tonight.

@Lady Seline:
1) Yes, your Golem Mastery feats are useless now. I can refund you for the relevel an for your time of course. Just let me know what your ingame account name is.

2) If you really need a damage source go for the Mirror Golem. The Mirror Golem is much stronger than the Mithral Golem and should do what you are looking for. Not to mention that I am still working on an ability for the Mirror Golem to pull aggression which should make him even more useful (if I get it working).

3) Epic Warding blocks the summon slot, yes. There is a balancing reason for doing that like KC pointed out. Arcanes would become even more powerful if we don't do it. Though, since I am still having problems to keep the Ward non-targetable it might be that I have to change it completely anyways. But that would mean no HP bar for the Ward anymore and personally I like the HP bar. Please let me know if you guys prefer to keep the HP bar or if it doesn't matter to you.

4) The former Golem went up to 50% I guess but I think capping it at 40% is more than fair. Arcanes are already the most tankiest chars on the server due a fault of mine (which was introducing the Mithral Golem without monitoring it's impact). And for your comparision with the Shield Other spell you need to keep something in mind: Shield Other protect someone else but YOU take the damage. Epic Warding protects you and the Ward takes the damage. That is a huge difference. And normally the Ward should have much more HP than a PC has.

5) I'll probably increase the effect of the Abjuration Feats even more by reducing the CL based HP scaling of the Ward and add more HP with the feats.

6) "Mortisfillia's Epic Warding"? Lol! I'll think about it.


1) its all good, I was doing my free ER4 relvl. No refund needed. I cocked up my lvl order twice so the 500,000 gold I lost was entirely my fault. ;)

2) I'd love to give the mirror a try with a different char: My future idea of a melee based sorcerer (EK). Anita is designed to be a bodyguard, so used the 'shield golem' to mitigate the damage she took with shield other.

4) Are they not just the most tanky if you take epic mage armour, and a shield use? If you either have enemies cast dispel magic, or just bypass ac with touch attacks or feint, all of us will die in two seconds due to lowest HP of all classes. Case and point, I die constantly at the H+S event, mostly due to the fact I dont have epic mage armour. My AC is only 93. Also if I dont (whuch I dont) take persistant damage spells (acid fog etc) My DPS is the lowest present, because melee classes hit for 250.. 5 times a round.

The ward worked fine during Fridays event. I noticed that the hard to see sparkley holy visual FX seemed to keep active when I died and I -think- the ward was down after I was ressurected. Can you run a test? Also the VFX is next to impossible to spot when I have 30 byffs active on me so without a combat log for lag reasons, I can't tell if it's ended or not. Can VFX be recoloured? Somethink like a cyan or red mirror image orb would be a lot easier to see for example.

TY for clarifying how much the old golem did. I just wanted to know how similar my game experience would be compared to before. I die less to my defendee taking damage now, but they take a lot more and died on occasion. (I know I have kind of an unique build so dont worry. I liked the idea of having a pet shield golem I made a char concept around it).

Lady Seline
Posts: 39

Re: Proposed Change - Arcane Golems

Post#36 » Sat Mar 30, 2019 6:55 am

kc2345 wrote:2) Add Blind Fight, so performance is more consistent vs concealed and non-concealed mobs. There is a huge drop-off in performance without this feat.


Err... ever considered just casting True seeing or Blindsight on your golem? Because it gets 'ignore concealment' or if the miss chance is from improved invisibility 'see invisibility'? Or are Mirror Golems unbuffable?
Last edited by Lady Seline on Sat Mar 30, 2019 7:15 am, edited 1 time in total.

Lady Seline
Posts: 39

Re: Proposed Change - Arcane Golems

Post#37 » Sat Mar 30, 2019 7:07 am

kc2345 wrote:4) Bracer Golem runeword rework. Perhaps make it add 10 regen to Epic Warding? (since people who took it for the old Mithral Golem should benefit still). For the Mirror Golem, an additional 15% conceal feels too much, as linearly scaling conceal exponentially scales durability. Going from 65% to 80% conceal makes the Mirror Golem virtually untouchable, especially given an additonal 10% immunity. Suggest capping the Conceal at 65% @Mastery 3. Mastery 4 could scale other stats as per usual.


Since Mirror golems are a damage source, isnt it better to up its % immunity and DR/- DR/elements because that's linear damage reduction then? Concealement will mean it isnt hit so doesnt reflect damage so its DPS drops. I think ut just needs enough concealment and AC to give it breaks to regen some HP for longevity (assume 4 attacks a round from an enemy and work out a reasonable % miss chance), and then just make it resistant to harm with Damage resistance and reduction?

. . . In essence I see it as: . . .

% immunity is equivalent to flat scaling total HP for longevity
DR/ is variable HP scaling, defense from low end mobs it should handle with ease, but leaves it vulnerable to 'bosses' who hit hard
Concealement is a hard dodge chance, to give the golem breather time to regen which is proportionately higher based off the amount the above reduce harm. Works against all foes (without true seeing).
AC is a soft non-spell scaling dodge chance. Low end mobs are dodged, with 'bosses' hitting regularly.
SR is a soft scaling magic dodge chance. Low CL and level spells are dodged, with top tiers hitting regularly.

kc2345
Posts: 655

Re: Proposed Change - Arcane Golems

Post#38 » Sat Mar 30, 2019 8:15 am

Mirror golems are unfortunately immune to spell targeting and cannot be buffed directly. Thus it does need blind fight.

Without the conceal, its 106 AC means it will take a lot of hits/damage on Event server and return to uselessness, unless immunity/resist are pushed significantly upwards to compensate.

The Mirror golem costs 4 feats and precludes the use of the powerful Shadow Simulacrum spell, so it does need to be strong to be worth it.

@Brumm - What about the Epic Warding working as is now, but also posts a message to your combat log every 18s telling you the HP status of the shield? 1 script trigger every 18s shouldn't be too taxing.
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kc2345
Posts: 655

Re: Proposed Change - Arcane Golems

Post#39 » Mon Apr 08, 2019 8:34 pm

I've been playing with the Mirror Golem a bit on event server.

Character build: 15 Sorcerer/24 EK/1 Cleric (This build has severe issues with spellslots on DM items, but that's another battle)

Golem caster level: 52 due to Practiced Caster overscaling.

Golem Stats:
3.2kish HP
128 AC
80 regen
60% Conceal
1d2+26, + 4 × 5d12 damage
AB in upper 110s.

Combat performance:
Currently virtually unkillable, and hits very often for moderate damage (mid 70s-90s in EX1 Thultanthar). Blind Fight made a huge difference in ability to hit stuff. Surprisingly, could be deafened, but status seems to have no effect on combat ability.

Suggestion:
1) Lower AB and AC by about 10 points, and HP to 2kish by adjusting the scaling formula. The old formula predated ER bonus CLs, and the bonus CL from ERs has pushed their power level into overkill.

2) Reduce conceal to 50% to keep it consistent with displacement spell.

I think these changes would lower the Mirror Golem's toughness to the point where it is killable, but still sufficiently tough to endure most things.

Changing this would also prevent unrealistic benchmarks for the reworked animal companions.
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Brumm
Posts: 2136

Re: Proposed Change - Arcane Golems

Post#40 » Tue Apr 09, 2019 12:11 am

Good suggestions. I'll implement them when we rolled out the new immunity plugin.

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