About Gish builds

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gazoo
Posts: 296

Re: About Gish builds

Post#11 » Mon Jul 25, 2016 10:49 pm

I have a red wizard and I think they are highly overrated on RoT specifically. RE DC issue and evocation spells: they have the same issue with them. Necromancy is (well, was ..don't know if it is better now) more-or-less useless at end-game. By the time you get up in levels, the penetration becomes irrelevant. You can build it into any wizard/sorc build and slowly replace it out as you get up in levels. Not to mention race restrictions,build order to avoid spell restrictions, and wizard spell slot play. Most of the damage comes from the ER boosts, so the extra levels is very moot for increased spell effect variables.

DC gain is +1 generally over a normal wizard or sorcerer with full stat. the DC is ~+2-4 in your school. Most of the serious DC comes from the ER bonuses and stats unique to RoT, which every caster has access to. By the time these are added, RW has nowhere near the same impact as a standard vanilla lvl RW 30 character. And mobs on RoT are nowhere near exact (balance-wise) with saves to make this small DC significant throughout the various chapters - the mobs are in constant flux and that's just the nature of evolution of the difficulty in a high magic PW.

So if a "Gish" is going to be just a full caster, but better than anything but a RW, I'd be loath to play any normal mage and likely not a RW in preference to tweaked Gish that rarely needs to worry about BAB if they have 32+/40 with AQ9.

RW should be better than both full mage and Gish (it's kind of borderline currently). Full mage should be a better caster than Gish.

The problem may be that on RoT, every wizard IS a gish due to the spells and items readily available (including all the -% ASF crafting). That does not mean that the Gish needs to be the new, superior full-mage.
This is why I think Gish needs it's own imaginative feats to make it a distinct playstyle.

(and btw: I almost rebuilt my 10 RW into 10 EK just to prove the balance point that 10EK + set > 10 rw with misc stuff, but I decided it was best to jest let it go and gave the stuff away...but it's certainly the less feat-intensive to go this path ultimately.)


Of course, I am fully aware that this is only my opinion on this matter. I just think it has a good chance to make standard wizards obsolete. I guess if I do have a bias, it's against Gish being an equal wizard to a wizard (DC and AQ) but...more. (very little of the original gish concept of compromise). They certainly have access to all stat boosts and spell slot boosts that pure mages have via items and ER gateway spells.

I'm not disagreeing that they need some tweaks...just think very carefully about how to make it unique but also fun to play.
Last edited by gazoo on Mon Jul 25, 2016 11:41 pm, edited 1 time in total.

Cataca
Posts: 307

Re: About Gish builds

Post#12 » Mon Jul 25, 2016 11:40 pm

After reading that post, i seriously doubt you have any experience playing a gish on RoT.

RW should be better than both full mage and Gish (it's kind of borderline currently). Full mage should be a better caster than Gish.


Thats hilarious. Even my highest DC gish, all post 30 feats put into DC feats and epic stats on their main DC stat gets at least 10 less DC's on a level 9 spell compared to my RW pure mage toon. Given the high saves of creatures, that translates to spells either not landing, at all, or spells landing for half damage.

Remember that base DCs get multiplied by the ER factor, so little differences make a huge impact down the line, especially when there is only a d20 margin for full/half/no damage.

Not to say that my RW has:
a. AQ 9, because its easy to get with a RW
b. Can spend all its feats on tasty tasty DC feats
c. Has about 15 more spell penetration than my gish, have fun landing any spell at drow castle.
d. doesnt have to worry about a secondary stat for AB, so has about twice the health.
e. Can easily get more AB than my gish with the tenser/DP thing. (not that it does him any good, garbage weapon and all)

(and btw: I almost rebuilt my 10 RW into 10 EK just to prove the balance point that 10EK + set > 10 rw with misc stuff, but I decided it was best to jest let it go and gave the stuff away...but it's certainly the less feat-intensive to go this path ultimately.)


Better for what? Taking hits? Casting half as quick? Hitting stuff for 4 minutes every rest?

Your premise for "better" is very, very strange.

Lomir
Posts: 241

Re: About Gish builds

Post#13 » Mon Jul 25, 2016 11:56 pm

Cataca wrote:I wrote at length about it in the last few posts of viewtopic.php?f=49&t=3215&p=26101#p26101

A quick summary: Tenser takes your HD, subtracts it by your BaB and gives you the difference in magic AB, this means that a low bab build gets much more out of the spell than a high BaB build like gishes, which are usually at ~27 bab @30.

So, tenser does make low bab builds death machines, if they couple it with a scroll of divine power. And it gives gishes 3 AB (at 30, at most 8 ab at 40) and takes their casting away.

And let me reiterate my personal opinion: What is the point of making a hybrid build, if all you do is hit things. You could have made a pure fighter and be better at it. Its fairly easy to get sufficient elemental resistance across the board and have all the immunities you need, the strongest AB buff arcane side buffs give you can be gotten with a bottle of g.heroism/is on a million items (haste).


I understand where you're coming from, but earlier you were making it sound as though an extra 3 AB from haste wouldn't balance out the overall AB issue. If a gish's BAB really is only 3-8 short of cap, then getting an extra 3 AB from a spell you're most likely persisting on yourself anyway seems as though it's a pretty fair trade (rather than netting it through tenser's).

If you're 8 BAB short of the cap, then 8 AB (+ another 3 from the haste) is a pretty fair trade for not being able to cast for a little while. I understand it's a bit inconvenient, but what it sounds like you actively want is a spell blade style caster, who is able to cast with one hand, with mostly full effectiveness, while wielding a sword in the other hand, once again with mostly full effectiveness.

Looking at it reasonably, you should either be 100% caster, 100% fighter, or some amalgamation between the 2. From what I've interpreted from your statements, you feel as though an arcane gish should be about 85% caster and 100% fighter at the same time, which is fairly unreasonable, and would pretty much remove the need to ever bother with a regular melee class at all.

While I may be misinterpreting what you're saying, it's just how it sounds to me. I personally enjoy the idea of playing a full caster who uses tenser's when things get dicey in order to be able to hulk smash things to the ground, but I disagree with the idea of being able to be as effective as any other caster WHILE also being as effective as any fighter...

Cataca
Posts: 307

Re: About Gish builds

Post#14 » Tue Jul 26, 2016 12:42 am

I understand where you're coming from, but earlier you were making it sound as though an extra 3 AB from haste wouldn't balance out the overall AB issue. If a gish's BAB really is only 3-8 short of cap, then getting an extra 3 AB from a spell you're most likely persisting on yourself anyway seems as though it's a pretty fair trade (rather than netting it through tenser's).

Spoiler: show
A 40 CL gish build is very unlikely. You lose some ~5 casterlevels just progressing through all 20 swiftblade and EK levels (the first level of EK is a dead level), most likely another 3-5 levels of no casting progression for whatever class gives you martial weapon prof, or if you rather take the feat as normal to keep the class slot open for another gish prc, 1/2 CL progression for either bladesinger or dragon-something (i never took that prc because its beyond terrible).

Tldr: If you want to buff gishes with this change, set the CL lower, pretty please.


This you mean? No, i said that gishes will never reach a CL of 40, thus never get the +3 to AB. If it is a buff targeted at gishes, i'd think it should target gishes.

If you're 8 BAB short of the cap, then 8 AB (+ another 3 from the haste) is a pretty fair trade for not being able to cast for a little while. I understand it's a bit inconvenient, but what it sounds like you actively want is a spell blade style caster, who is able to cast with one hand, with mostly full effectiveness, while wielding a sword in the other hand, once again with mostly full effectiveness.

3-4 minutes of beeing totally locked into melee is not "a little while" for me, but that is besides the point.

If gishes require tenser to hit anything, and they rely on their mediocre spell DCs for all the time between, what exactly is the point of spending tons and tons of feats to qualify for high bab/low progression PRCs, when you could go full caster and be a better melee during tenser than a gish is, and a better mage when it is down.

Thats my point.
Looking at it reasonably, you should either be 100% caster, 100% fighter, or some amalgamation between the 2. From what I've interpreted from your statements, you feel as though an arcane gish should be about 85% caster and 100% fighter at the same time, which is fairly unreasonable, and would pretty much remove the need to ever bother with a regular melee class at all
.

I agree, but thats not how it works currently. Gishes are miserable at hitting anything unless they are under tenser or (heavens forbid) the 4 minutes total full bab thing from the EK set. They are miserable casters even when spending all their feats on DCs. And this, is while we still have easymode. Remember that post-change they are going to miss out on 3 more base DCs.

Do you see a lot of people playing Gishes in high level content? No. People give up before that, and for good reason.

While I may be misinterpreting what you're saying, it's just how it sounds to me. I personally enjoy the idea of playing a full caster who uses tenser's when things get dicey in order to be able to hulk smash things to the ground, but I disagree with the idea of being able to be as effective as any other caster WHILE also being as effective as any fighter...


I dont want gishes to be as effective as either of those classes in their respective field of expertise, but they will never be, no matter if you buff them to a level where they could compete numerically (ab and DCs)

Pure melees have weapon master. Pure casters have frostmage. On top of heaving to juggle stats, a brickton of feat requirements BaB/CL and DC feats, and the immensly fun round system that nwn2 employs (if you start casting even a milisecond after the new attack started, you lose an entire round and the full reminder of the attack). You can be sure that gishes are never going to be the super top tier power builds. All i want them to be is viable. (and trust me, i tried, oh how much i tried)

Fan
Posts: 576

Re: About Gish builds

Post#15 » Tue Jul 26, 2016 12:04 pm

About Tenser spell, I get two ideas:

1. Maybe we can remove the enforced spell failure 100%. Instead, we can add some code to automatically remove the buff effects if you cast any spell during the spell duration. This will make the spell much user friendly to use. You do not get locked into a fixed amount of time.

2. We can consider an AB bonus lower bound based on the caster CL. For example, if we introduce an AB bonus lower bound equals to CL/4. Then a level 40, 32 CL, 36 BAB gish will receive 8 (32/4) AB bonus not 4 (40 - 36).

MortisCorpus
Posts: 1536

Re: About Gish builds

Post#16 » Tue Jul 26, 2016 12:19 pm

Fan, Re Tensers, removing the 100% ASF / Add break on cast would be awesome.
2. Other plain options, add greater and epic weapon focuses to the feats for SB / EK?
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Fan
Posts: 576

Re: About Gish builds

Post#17 » Tue Jul 26, 2016 12:51 pm

To Mort. Adding greater/epic weapon focus for EK can be another option. I am going to do some maths about different gish builds and the AB gap we need to fill. Then we can figure out what's the best solution to fill the gap to buff Gish PrC.

My past building experience is that any gish build in RoT with reasonable CL/DC will have roughly 8~10 less AB than melee fighters. That's why theurges are better gishes than Gish PrC, because they can cheat with low CL Divine Power lol. I believe the buffed gishes should have slightly less but close AB to melees.

To Cataca. I want to keep bladesinger as an option for wizard-based gish only. If sorc-based gish needs special love after all the buffs, I would rather buff them via another underplayed PrC, like DragonSlayer or Heartwarder.

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