About Gish builds

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Fan
Posts: 576

About Gish builds

Post#1 » Mon Jul 25, 2016 11:56 am

Arcane (Wizard/Sorc) Gish builds are never OP and will probably soon become underpowered if we remove the easy mode points. Some even argue that Mystic Theurge with divine power is a better Gish than real Gish builds with Gish PrC. The root cause is the following:

1. Arcane spells do not provide enough extra buffing for gish's melee ability. Unlike low-magic servers, it is easy to find magic items in RoT to surpass most arcane buffing spells. Therefore Gish's spell casting does not help melee fighting at all in RoT.

2. Bladesinger PrC was completely underpowered and unplayable in RoT. It is still very weak with dodge cap lifting.

3. Eldritch Knight is also weak due to the special RoT environment.

I have the following change plan in my mind.

1. Allow haste spell to provide extra AB if you have very high CL, e.g., extra +1 at 20 CL, +2 at 30CL, and +3 at 40CL. Persistent haste spell is the most important reason of being a gish in other servers. It makes sense to make it at least somewhat useful in RoT for gishes.

2. Allow Combat Insight feat to work with RoT customized damage bonus, i.e., Int will be used instead of Str to determine the RoT customized damage if you have Combat Insight feat.

3. Bladesinger gains an AB bonus equals to the difference between its Int modifier and its Str/Dex modifier. This bonus is capped at the half of Bladesinger level (+5 maximum). This bonus only applies if you follow the bladesinger's combat style.

4. Remove -2 AB penalty for the Bladesinger's song of fury

5. Bladesinger gains extra damage equals to half of its CL if it carries longsword instead of rapier (give them a reason to use longsword and str instead).

6. Make Eldritch Knight a PrC with 20 levels. The spell progression will be 19/20 or 18/20.

7. Maybe give Eldrich Knight extra two bonus feats at 16 and 20. This allows a focused gish to take full AQ line (although it will still be very hard and feat starve).

This is just a draft change list in my mind. I am not sure when I will have time to finish them. This change list is designed to work together with the change of easymode stat points when that happens. The goal is to make gish a fun, powerful, and balanced build style to play.

All comments are welcome.

Lomir
Posts: 241

Re: About Gish builds

Post#2 » Mon Jul 25, 2016 12:23 pm

Would it be at all possible to remove the racial requirement on Bladesinger? With it being elf only, it makes all the current gishes that are not elves unable to fulfill the racial requirement for a class that's being buffed to make gishes more viable.

Cataca
Posts: 307

Re: About Gish builds

Post#3 » Mon Jul 25, 2016 12:51 pm

Mystic Theurge with divine power is a better Gish than real Gish builds with Gish PrC


Thats a fact =P

Allow haste spell to provide extra AB if you have very high CL, e.g., extra +1 at 20 CL, +2 at 30CL, and +3 at 40CL. Persistent haste spell is the most important reason of being a gish in other servers. It makes sense to make it at least somewhat useful in RoT for gishes


A 40 CL gish build is very unlikely. You lose some ~5 casterlevels just progressing through all 20 swiftblade and EK levels (the first level of EK is a dead level), most likely another 3-5 levels of no casting progression for whatever class gives you martial weapon prof, or if you rather take the feat as normal to keep the class slot open for another gish prc, 1/2 CL progression for either bladesinger or dragon-something (i never took that prc because its beyond terrible).

Tldr: If you want to buff gishes with this change, set the CL lower, pretty please.
2. Allow Combat Insight feat to work with RoT customized damage bonus, i.e., Int will be used instead of Str to determine the RoT customized damage if you have Combat Insight feat.


I am torn on this, because while it sounds like a good idea, it is going to have huge impact on damage on all the PTWF dex builds out there. It also makes wizard gishes kind of a superior option (though that has always been the case to some degree).

3. Bladesinger gains an AB bonus equals to the difference between its Int modifier and its Str/Dex modifier. This bonus is capped at the half of Bladesinger level (+5 maximum). This bonus only applies if you follow the bladesinger's combat style.


Similarily to the point above, while this is going to be great for wizard gish builds, it wont be doing much for any sorcerer. Also note, that a EK/SB/BD build has exactly 3 feats left to choose between 1-30, is race restricted and can at most reach a CL of 36 at 40 (35 when taking SB up to uncanny). That is going to... narrow build possibilities down somewhat, to say the least.

5. Bladesinger gains extra damage equals to half of its CL if it carries longsword instead of rapier (give them a reason to use longsword and str instead).

That sounds awesome.
6. Make Eldritch Knight a PrC with 20 levels. The spell progression will be 19/20 or 18/20.


YES! I have been asking for this for such a long time. Uncapped eldrich knight progression is really needed badly.

7. Maybe give Eldrich Knight extra two bonus feats at 16 and 20. This allows a focused gish to take full AQ line (although it will still be very hard and feat starve).


Gishes need bonus feats no doubt, (because even a self concealment warrior has more wiggle room with feats), the premise of AQ9 working at 40 though wont... exactly help this though. :lol:

There is a PnP progression for bonus feats on epic levels with EK, if you want to follow it:
(12/15/18/21/...) ie. every 3 levels past 10, the 10th level of EK can only be taken at 21

Fan
Posts: 576

Re: About Gish builds

Post#4 » Mon Jul 25, 2016 2:05 pm

Lomir wrote:Would it be at all possible to remove the racial requirement on Bladesinger? With it being elf only, it makes all the current gishes that are not elves unable to fulfill the racial requirement for a class that's being buffed to make gishes more viable.


We can remove the racial requirement, but I am not sure whether we should or not. I personally have no preference on this issue. On one hand, I understand this will allow many existing Gishes to take the PrC via relevel. On the other hand, we already have too many snakes in RoT and I am not sure how many more yuanti-bladesinger we will create if we remove this requirement lol :D

gazoo
Posts: 296

Re: About Gish builds

Post#5 » Mon Jul 25, 2016 5:57 pm

Looks interesting. All the ideas have merit.

Just take care to not make EKs the new meta, with too many feats and a set that gives great bonuses.

I can see sorcs as being the no-brainer choice for a feat-intensive EK , since the only benefit a wizard gets over sorc is the feats.

It baffles me to why the AQ series so pushed as standard for gishes here. That's really a dedicated and specialized caster-mage thing, imho. A goal of 3/4 bab and aq9? That sound a bit like the best of both worlds to me. I'd suggest the best approach would to create some feats unique to EK, that could be selected with those bonus feats -and only one of those special feats.

Gishes are about helpful spells in combat to boost combat prowess with the occasional damage spell.

I'm not against gishes, but I can possibly see myself never building a full caster with all of this in play. No point in taking anything but sorc/EK20/Asoc and something else for ~4 levels (Maybe Asoc 8 and FrostMage6, etc).


And remember, once something is in play, it's almost impossible to correct it. The goal is to make a unique play-style experience that is a gish, not simply a better wizard.

Cataca
Posts: 307

Re: About Gish builds

Post#6 » Mon Jul 25, 2016 6:35 pm

I'm not against gishes


It really sounds like you are.

Because if your main argument against this is that you think 6 sorc (1 feat for Mart. w. Prof.) + 20 EK for the two bonus feats is going to be the meta over 26 sorcerer, let me remind you that you get bonus feats at sorc 23 and 26. All EK has going for it is 40 more base health and high fort saves. (and -1 CL, which sucks if you are between a epic caster level).

And, yes, the stupid EK set. Which by now has been used as an argument that nothing be done for gishes (hell, the duration of its AB buff even got nerfed down to 2x2 minutes because of the whining) enough that i'd rather have it removed and we get a proper discussion going.

Gishes are about helpful spells in combat to boost combat prowess with the occasional damage spell.

Which they both suck terribly at right now, so whats the point.

adam
Posts: 466

Re: About Gish builds

Post#7 » Mon Jul 25, 2016 9:15 pm

I am not an expert on Gish/Arcane builds, so I was not going to post. However, It looked strange seeing a "Gish revamp" thread that didn't mention Tenser's. Can someone please explain how that spell doesn't solve, at least, the AB side of the issue?

Lomir
Posts: 241

Re: About Gish builds

Post#8 » Mon Jul 25, 2016 9:26 pm

I believe the main complaint gishes have about Tenser's is that it precludes casting while active, although I personally find the trade pretty fair, since you're basically giving up casting ability temporarily for a buff that makes you hit as well as a fighter.

Cataca
Posts: 307

Re: About Gish builds

Post#9 » Mon Jul 25, 2016 10:18 pm

I wrote at length about it in the last few posts of viewtopic.php?f=49&t=3215&p=26101#p26101

A quick summary: Tenser takes your HD, subtracts it by your BaB and gives you the difference in magic AB, this means that a low bab build gets much more out of the spell than a high BaB build like gishes, which are usually at ~27 bab @30.

So, tenser does make low bab builds death machines, if they couple it with a scroll of divine power. And it gives gishes 3 AB (at 30, at most 8 ab at 40) and takes their casting away.

And let me reiterate my personal opinion: What is the point of making a hybrid build, if all you do is hit things. You could have made a pure fighter and be better at it. Its fairly easy to get sufficient elemental resistance across the board and have all the immunities you need, the strongest AB buff arcane side buffs give you can be gotten with a bottle of g.heroism/is on a million items (haste).

Fan
Posts: 576

Re: About Gish builds

Post#10 » Mon Jul 25, 2016 10:21 pm

Besides the spell casting failure, the mechanism of the tenser spell determines that it gives more AB to normal wizard than Gishes.

The current situation of Gish is that if you decide to go as a mainly buffed melee, arcane spells are so bad at buffing; if you decide to grab more spell ability, your AB will suffer a lot to a point where your melee ability can barely hit and you can only use your spells. If so why not become a cleric as a buffed warrior or a pure arcane for better casting?

I believe Gish should be Gish, i.e., it should have both good melee and arcane abilities. Of course, fighter/barb should be better at melee fighting than buffed Gish and red wizard should be better than Gish at casting. However, Gish currently cannot get both abilities working in RoT.

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