CANCELLED - RULE CHANGE: EASY MODE

Developers, want feedback? Ask the players here.
gazoo
Posts: 296

Re: RULE CHANGE: EASY MODE

Post#31 » Tue Jul 19, 2016 1:06 pm

Lets compare builds and hard numbers because it seems people here have some romantic idea of gishes beeing strong


I'm not arguing one way or another. I simply proposed an alternate suggestion for discussion that might be simpler for general tweaking and potential future changes.

You may be correct about the belt, but it does suffer from -2AB from not having IRS. This used to be important, but with the eliminated AB cap, I'll agree this is much less significant than it used to be, considering all the filler AB spells/feats you can tack on now.
*shrug* Maybe also reduce zen archery ...


But re gishes: High or low magic PW:

-Typically they just get enough stat to cast the defensive spells for battle (mirror image, conceal, immunities, etc -9th or maybe even less) and everything else is physical. Possibly some crowd control spells too, but these were never reliable even on low magic PW due to low DCs. That almost always needs pure-caster dedication.

-Anything in between that range of min spell casting DC and max melee focus makes a weaker gish.. Already (not including easy mode), we get 20 free stats and an additional +12 to every ability from items/spells if desired).

-compensation in form of tons extra spell-slots and a dedicated set has been added. Why do most gish build try to go into the high quicken and whatnot? They can have access to the new soulstrike, etc if focus is on strength.



I suppose the question to you should be "what exactly do you expect the minimum gish abilities to be?" ! That might clarify expectations some.


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But in the end...either way works. NO arguing from me;it's just discussion.

Cataca
Posts: 307

Re: RULE CHANGE: EASY MODE

Post#32 » Tue Jul 19, 2016 2:08 pm

But re gishes: High or low magic PW:

-Typically they just get enough stat to cast the defensive spells for battle (mirror image, conceal, immunities, etc -9th or maybe even less) and everything else is physical. Possibly some crowd control spells too, but these were never reliable even on low magic PW due to low DCs. That almost always needs pure-caster dedication.


There is a significant difference between low and high magic and gishes. Gishes are powerful on low magic, because they can overcome the gap to normal fighters with GMW, Heroism and Haste. None of that is applicable here. You can only compare base stats and final AB.

Not to say that the ocassional no-save nuke on a gish usually gives them a fair bit of damage advantage over mundane builds. With quakeshock that is not the case anymore. Gishes are worse of in the melee departement and have nothing to show in the spellcasting one, because the only real damage/utility comes from save spells exclusively.


-compensation in form of tons extra spell-slots and a dedicated set has been added. Why do most gish build try to go into the high quicken and whatnot? They can have access to the new soulstrike, etc if focus is on strength.


Soulstrike? Feel free to make a gish build that has weaponmaster levels and tell me how feat starved you are. Quakeshock i'll agree on, if it was an actual gish-exclusive thing, but it is not. Let us compare apples with apples here, a mundane build with quakeshock and a weapon will do better than a gish in the melee departement (and that is how it should be), but what is the point, if they cant do anything but be a weaker melee.


TLDR: There is no point to be a gish on RoT, if you cant land save spells. The minimum requirement for gishes to work, is that they are a weaker melee and a weaker spellcaster but can do both. Either/or leads to "why bother." As casterlevel/bab loss via PRCs is right now, this can only be achieved if you can substitute your AB stat with your DC stat.

addict-ant
Posts: 662

Re: RULE CHANGE: EASY MODE

Post#33 » Wed Jul 20, 2016 8:09 am

Cataca wrote:As someone who has many easymode builds, i just want to say that i am completely fine with losing the 5 extra points on them. Its an unfair advantage over other people on the server, and not something i'd really want.


As someone who's only just got into a position where he can start using easy-mode characters to power build I personally would be rather unhappy to have this option taken away. I also think they're may be a few others who feel the same but do not keep quite the same eye on the forum we do (Biowarefan please help me out here mate ;) )

As such I'm rather keen to find a way to keep those extra points in the game. As per my previous post about a 'veteran's build' mode, I'd also suggest perhaps paying for the privilege of such a mode, whether that be game money or real money (though real money smacks of pay-to-win). Or perhaps some form of sponsoring/helping new players?

Personally I don't see it as an unfair advantage so long as that advantage is universally obtainable - as it currently is now.

Again - just my two pence worth: not going to throw my toys out of the pram if it does get taken out :D
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Cervantes
Posts: 635

Re: RULE CHANGE: EASY MODE

Post#34 » Wed Jul 20, 2016 8:58 am

Y'all notice how this thread is still civil and productive, four pages in? Amazing, the change in tone of our forums when the population changes a little ;) Nice work, folks!

For my part, I've never made an easy mode character. I didn't even realize easy mode characters got 5 EXTRA attribute points until I was here for a year and a half - I always interpreted it as them getting their ER1 points at creation instead of at ER1. It was only in talking to Cat about his many iterations of his gishes that I was otherwise educated.

I agree with gazoo's concept of gish - my first high-level was this very notion. Strength to 50, just enough intelligence to cast buffs, incendiary cloud, and evard's, constitution for the rest. I had very good luck with this, especially with the right melee weapon.

I guess, since I have no easy-mode characters, I really don't have any skin in the game. That being said, getting two stats to/near 50 is a little nuts.
Grevaine the Blackbird, recruiter for the Arcane Society
Hank Stone, tinkerer and supporter of the down-trodden
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Baelnorn, DM

Lomir
Posts: 241

Re: RULE CHANGE: EASY MODE

Post#35 » Wed Jul 20, 2016 12:58 pm

I'd also like to point out (for those that are worried about being an arcane gish), if you are truly worried about your AB, use tenser's transformation, then eat scrolls of divine power as you go. Tenser's, while having the downside of preventing you from casting anymore spells, is an AB equal to your character level minus your BAB (so at level 40 that's 20 if you chose to just go pure wizard or sorcerer), and with divine power, you'd be looking at basically another 20. Between the 2 of those, and generic buffs (greater heroism, +13 on your weapon, and just having a +12 str from animalistic power) you should be around 80 AB. While it's not the most advantageous option, since you dumped the ability to cast for 40 rounds by using Tenser's, it does fit the overall archetype that people have been talking about, and leaves you the leeway to push your casting stat high, and also be able to take a lot of nifty PrCs like Frost Mage for when you're scared of stuff.

Cataca
Posts: 307

Re: RULE CHANGE: EASY MODE

Post#36 » Wed Jul 20, 2016 1:57 pm

Lomir wrote:I'd also like to point out (for those that are worried about being an arcane gish), if you are truly worried about your AB, use tenser's transformation, then eat scrolls of divine power as you go. Tenser's, while having the downside of preventing you from casting anymore spells, is an AB equal to your character level minus your BAB (so at level 40 that's 20 if you chose to just go pure wizard or sorcerer), and with divine power, you'd be looking at basically another 20. Between the 2 of those, and generic buffs (greater heroism, +13 on your weapon, and just having a +12 str from animalistic power) you should be around 80 AB. While it's not the most advantageous option, since you dumped the ability to cast for 40 rounds by using Tenser's, it does fit the overall archetype that people have been talking about, and leaves you the leeway to push your casting stat high, and also be able to take a lot of nifty PrCs like Frost Mage for when you're scared of stuff.


Apart from the fact that i personally, really dont enjoy spending 6 seconds every 36 seconds to keep my BaB up, Tenser is vastly better for pure casters using this method than it is for arcane gishes. In fact, using this, the best strategy for building would be to stick to low BaB progression all around to exploit the shizzniz out of the spell, easy ~90 AB for anyone that has a 20 bab base build at 40.

Does that make gish PRCs more attractive? No. Quite the opposite. Not only do non gish caster PRCs have less feat requirements overall, they also offer vastly more utility in the spellcasting departement. If you'd look at the classes objectively, and someone asks you "Hey, how do i build the most effective gish out there, both in the AB and DC departement?" and the answer is :"You should stay the hell away from gish classes and build it like a pure mage, but use tensers and divine power via scrolls, alternatively, you can always build a theurge!" i'd say there are issues, and they need resolving.

IMHO, the fact that even before the theurge class came out, the most successful Gish build i ever made utilized exactly none of the gish classes should speak volumes to the state they were/are in.
Reference:
Spoiler: show
http://nwn2db.com/build/?218984 (note that this build has paid dearly for the AB uncap, but is still viable due to the theurge class)


edit: I'd also argue that the tenser/DM combo is a boarderline exploit, imho.

gazoo
Posts: 296

Re: RULE CHANGE: EASY MODE

Post#37 » Wed Jul 20, 2016 3:02 pm

edit: I'd also argue that the tenser/DM combo is a boarderline exploit, imho.


...I think any personal opinions on exploits aren't relevant to this discussion. There are many, many potential things that we all have our opinions on. I'm not saying I do not agree with you here, but for example: my biggest pet peeve is builds that get feats through items that the build should really have no hope in hell of ever getting. Items are the culprits, mostly.

Improved evasion is one. I play a lot of roguish characters, and imho it's totally exploitive for the most clumsy of spellcasters/fighters to have Improved Evasion.... But if it's there and readily available, and general consensus is.....

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Just saying... we need to discuss things in the current context. And currently those are common/standard practices, and not just for gishes. As are scrolls of storm avatar and all that kind of thing!

Cataca
Posts: 307

Re: RULE CHANGE: EASY MODE

Post#38 » Wed Jul 20, 2016 3:23 pm

gazoo wrote:Just saying... we need to discuss things in the current context. And currently those are common/standard practices, and not just for gishes.


Which is my point exactly. Something every build can use to its advantage to buff up its AB shouldnt be considered a solution for Gishes, just because they happen to have easy access to one of the spells needed. (so do clerics, tenser is a domain spell)

And this brings me full circle: The only viable gish build post easymode removal that is possible, is a wizard with identity crysis (he'd rather have been a warrior and does that now exclusively), and literally every other build can do the same -easier/better/less feat intensive- so, what is the point. The only way gishes will have a niche' is if you make them a middleground between specialized fighters and spezialized casters. Worse at both but still, and that is the main point, viable.

Volkier
Posts: 15

Re: RULE CHANGE: EASY MODE

Post#39 » Thu Jul 28, 2016 1:32 am

Cataca wrote:
bsb5652 wrote:
addict-ant wrote:
May I echo this query please?



To be determined.


As someone who has many easymode builds, i just want to say that i am completely fine with losing the 5 extra points on them. Its an unfair advantage over other people on the server, and not something i'd really want.


I completely agree, BUT it would be nice if Easymode Characters also got the massive chunks of experience they lost as a result of their choice. Considering "easymode" was specifically picked for the end-game characters, while accepting that getting there would be harder as a 'sacrifice' (since easymode characters effectively play at half the experience level of others, plus the 200k or so Experience you get in the first campaign).

Brumm
Posts: 2136

Re: RULE CHANGE: EASY MODE

Post#40 » Thu Jul 28, 2016 11:40 am

Volkier wrote:I completely agree, BUT it would be nice if Easymode Characters also got the massive chunks of experience they lost as a result of their choice. Considering "easymode" was specifically picked for the end-game characters, while accepting that getting there would be harder as a 'sacrifice' (since easymode characters effectively play at half the experience level of others, plus the 200k or so Experience you get in the first campaign).


We have no data about that so we don't know who lost XP because of easy mode.

And we wont reward people for picking easy mode when they were expected to pick the normal mode. Easy was intended to give you an easy start for your first character. We noticed pretty late that people abused this starting help to get an advantage.

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