CANCELLED - RULE CHANGE: EASY MODE

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Brumm
Posts: 2136

CANCELLED - RULE CHANGE: EASY MODE

Post#1 » Sun Jul 17, 2016 4:29 pm

Hello everybody!

After a bunch of difficulty scale downs in many areas we plan to change the rules for the easy mode. We'll remove the 5 free bonus attribute points to bring regular and easy mode characters a bit more in line. The reduced difference between builds will allow a more adequate mob balancing and hopefully a better overall gameplay experience. We might add another temporary bonus like the easy mode ER scaling for spells but I need to think about that and will make the penalty a temporary as well.

If this change makes special builds unplayable we need to find ways to make those builds viable without affecting the global balancing.

Greetings
Brumm

Cataca
Posts: 307

Re: RULE CHANGE: EASY MODE

Post#2 » Sun Jul 17, 2016 4:42 pm

MAD charisma/int builds are going to be impossible to pull off like this. (i mean either charisma/strength or dex, inteligence/strength or dex) if you dont use snowflake/divine power.

I am all for removing the crutch that is easymode (and quite frankly, an unfair advantage for those [like me] that were willing to put in extra effort to squeeze out 5 extra stats) but gishes are... not in a very good place in the first place. Please consider making feats like intuitive attack/weapon finesse for those two stats.

Those builds pay their versatility with casterlevels/ab and immense feat requirements compared to the purists already, i really dont see why their main casting stat shouldnt be their main AB stat as well.

Caylin
Posts: 413

Re: RULE CHANGE: EASY MODE

Post#3 » Sun Jul 17, 2016 4:45 pm

Does this mean that those with easy mode chars will keep the points or have them removed? If the points stay those toons will forever have more power than others can achieve. I urge you to reconsider.

If the benefits are temporary but the penalty remains until you reach 40 then easy mode wont do much to help newcomers build toons to learn the server. For me the 5 stat points were more helpful than the spell ER for months until i got some nice gear.

Itaasi
Posts: 799

Re: RULE CHANGE: EASY MODE

Post#4 » Sun Jul 17, 2016 4:54 pm

I agree with Caylin. Removing the 5 Ability points will make Easy Mode feel a LOT more punishing.
I suggest reducing the Easy Mode penalties if this is done.
The other option is to completely remove Easy Mode and make any Easy Mode character into a Normal Mode one.
And as Cataca said, I think gishes will need some love if this change is made.

Brumm
Posts: 2136

Re: RULE CHANGE: EASY MODE

Post#5 » Sun Jul 17, 2016 5:00 pm

Like i said: Easy mode penalty will be temporary. Maybe just until ER 1 or something like that.
For the dual stat builds we need think a bit. It is not our aim to make them impossible to play.

gazoo
Posts: 296

Re: RULE CHANGE: EASY MODE

Post#6 » Sun Jul 17, 2016 6:19 pm

Well, the obvious thing is that dual-stat builds need to prioritize which stat is higher, then. I think we are getting way too spoiled if both get to 50 or even close, considering +12 is guaranteed from items/spells for both stats. Just imho.

Brumm
Posts: 2136

Re: RULE CHANGE: EASY MODE

Post#7 » Sun Jul 17, 2016 7:06 pm

I agree, gazoo. I don't think that getting two attributes to 50 should be possible. We'll just do anything if some fun builds would become totally impossible to play because we don't want to reduce the building variety. Our main target is to get a more balanced environment and to not force you to invest extra grinding time just to get those extra 5 points.

Cataca
Posts: 307

Re: RULE CHANGE: EASY MODE

Post#8 » Sun Jul 17, 2016 8:00 pm

The only builds that needed two stats as close to 50 as possible are high CL hybrids in the first place, arcane beeing doubly screwed because they have neither a +6 epic stat feat and have to spend feats/casterlevels on their PRCs while still having nowhere close enough AB bonuses on their spells to get anywhere near a fighters AB.

My main point is, i am all for removing the easymode thing. I really am. Its silly and just makes a rift between people that grind more and those that dont. But the easy availability of buffs and unique perks like haste from the arcane side outside of beeing an arcane build (and the lack therof while actually specializing) makes high CL gishes super underwhelming now, taking away the ability to get sufficient AB/DC stat will pretty much outright eliminate the possibility to be anything but a buff-based fighter.

My solution to it would be an intuitive attack-ish feat or spell, or something like it. Tie it to wizards/sorcerers to elimiate game-braking combos. Heavy armor builds would pay the price in missing out a ton of strength damage, light armor builds would pay their price in AC. If anything, it would be just as balanced as intuitive attack is, and if that is allowed to exist while there is a class that gets ~13 AB + full BAB via buffs, then there cant be much misgivings about arcanists heaving something similar.

my 50 cents.

gazoo
Posts: 296

Re: RULE CHANGE: EASY MODE

Post#9 » Sun Jul 17, 2016 8:33 pm

I agree about the wisdom +6 shard feat being outdated.

But gishes typically don't both cast DC spells and fight well. They traditionally cast protections and helpful spells and go toe to toe in combat.

Only on RoT are they able get around 50 int and also have relatively good fighting skills/strength. Not to mention the EK set that gives a BAB boost a couple of times/day and also DP scrolls that can be used repeatedly every 6-7 rounds.

They are certainly not in danger of being dispelled any more than a dedicated caster is.

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Edit:
Although full intuitive combat does make a mess of things in the whole AB balance scheme, though. I know of one current PW that tailors the bonus to 3/4 of the level of monk that you currently have (for them it's mostly a monk-intensive thing and not for clerics and druids) and another PW has gone over the discussion many times and decided that it just helps the stronger Cleric and Druid classes too much, it's too much pitha to script modifications, and also monk may be getting tweaked there anyways - so it simply won't be added.

(Lol, I just argued 180 degrees.)

TLDR: I don't know. Maybe Cataca's proposal has merit, considering it's generally considered impossible to rework such things once established in game.

Volkier
Posts: 15

Re: RULE CHANGE: EASY MODE

Post#10 » Sun Jul 17, 2016 9:30 pm

How about expanding the wish shard feat options to purchase stats? At the moment you can only get +6 STR if you have 13 levels in three fighter classes, or +6 WIS if you have 20 levels of 3 divine caster classes. Maybe tune that to include more classes of lower levels, so builds consisting of 3 or 4 classes are viable. You could balance this with ER requirements for the feat availability.

Also, I know I'm new, and I'm not criticising the game or the server or anything (and granted I am aware that this may not be the case end game), but I'm struggling in the spell-casting department on any character. I find that casting any damage spell tends to do far less damage than beating on the same enemy with anything melee does in the same amount of time. And that is before taking into consideration that the spell is very likely to get resisted, and the downside of having finite spells per day to cast and whatnot (stuff that was balanced out in general D&D by the fact that having an exploding meteor thrown at you hurt significantly more than getting stabbed).

I understand that this is my experience as an ER1 player, I have nowhere near reached the end game, and I very likely have a very narrow pool of experience in that department, but it just feels like this is the general consensus amongst the players - in that STR based melee builds are superior, and gishes are "meant" to be melee swordsmen using spells primarily for buffs. There just feels to be introduced limitations on what type of 'build' are playable and so far from what everyone tells me, this is what the late game is too.

Again not criticising, it's a great server, I absolutely enjoy my time in Trinity, wouldn't swap it for anything, understand I'm nowhere near the end game, and merely giving feedback on my first impressions and opinion based on my own gameplay and the classes I see played. Just that maybe this is also relevant to more builds being viable / playable / enjoyable...

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