Dodge AC Lifting Changes

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Cataca
Posts: 307

Re: Dodge AC Lifting Changes

Post#31 » Fri Jun 17, 2016 3:52 pm

Nice! I was afraid my dream of finally ditching lame shields on my toons would recieve a major setback :D

I'd wait for a pally buff, they get some 3 Dodge AC via selfbuffs, irrc.

Garasou
Posts: 55

Re: Dodge AC Lifting Changes

Post#32 » Fri Jun 17, 2016 4:45 pm

That 25% is on a mythical 50 charisma Pally but I really don't see how to actually create a viable version of such character. Most people will end up with around 15-17% concealment in a typical build. Not that it really needs a buff it's was more a question of justifying spending a precious feat slot on it as paladins really don't need more sources of AC (they already have the best non-nature caster ways of getting AC) Also while speaking about paladins could you please check their feat progression? For some reason several of the extra feats added to make the class better are given at later levels compared to what the class description says they should be (this applies mainly to the epic elemental resist feats)

Cataca
Posts: 307

Re: Dodge AC Lifting Changes

Post#33 » Fri Jun 17, 2016 5:07 pm

Ah, i kind of agree that it isnt worth a feat as it stands. But imho paladins are already preeety strong, so buffing EDS to actually be worth the investment is going to be a tightrope walk. (and paladins do qualify for epic stoicism now, so a 50/50 build is possible with easymode, if you are willing to invest some feats post 30)

gazoo
Posts: 296

Re: Dodge AC Lifting Changes

Post#34 » Fri Jun 17, 2016 5:14 pm

...since easy mode is now integrated in almost every thread lately, it might as well be assumed to be the default standard of comparison for building.

Basically I'm suggesting that all future feat improvements should assume that everyone has those extra stats to spend. And those of us that don't, well ... the handicap is now our rare choice. Not a complaint - just a suggested norm so that the continuing adjustment for better building is correctly evaluated.

It's improving!

Garasou
Posts: 55

Re: Dodge AC Lifting Changes

Post#35 » Fri Jun 17, 2016 5:41 pm

gazoo wrote:...since easy mode is now integrated in almost every thread lately, it might as well be assumed to be the default standard of comparison for building.

Basically I'm suggesting that all future feat improvements should assume that everyone has those extra stats to spend. And those of us that don't, well ... the handicap is now our rare choice. Not a complaint - just a suggested norm so that the continuing adjustment for better building is correctly evaluated.

It's improving!


That was just a commentary on the possibility of the build, easy mode is still something I would never consider doing for a long term character due to the incredibly annoying undocumented (it's not mentioned in the in-game description of it) 50% banked xp penalty (as in anytime you try using banked xp on it half of the used xp will evaporate to show you the error of your ways)

Cataca
Posts: 307

Re: Dodge AC Lifting Changes

Post#36 » Fri Jun 17, 2016 6:27 pm

Super off topic:
Spoiler: show
Garasou wrote:
gazoo wrote:...since easy mode is now integrated in almost every thread lately, it might as well be assumed to be the default standard of comparison for building.

Basically I'm suggesting that all future feat improvements should assume that everyone has those extra stats to spend. And those of us that don't, well ... the handicap is now our rare choice. Not a complaint - just a suggested norm so that the continuing adjustment for better building is correctly evaluated.

It's improving!


That was just a commentary on the possibility of the build, easy mode is still something I would never consider doing for a long term character due to the incredibly annoying undocumented (it's not mentioned in the in-game description of it) 50% banked xp penalty (as in anytime you try using banked xp on it half of the used xp will evaporate to show you the error of your ways)


Eh, when you click on apply banked xp, there is a message clearly warning you that only 50% of your banked xp applies ;)

That said, a majority of all builds dont really need to do easymode. Sure, many people will run easymode for those extra statpoints, but i daresay most builds could live without it and be no weaker. With the banked xp you get and the reduced xp requirement to hit 40, it easily makes normalmode builds twice as fast to level. (and much easier to finance, afaik there is a gold penalty asociated with heaving an easymode build as well).

But anything that needs to go split stats for DC's and AB that isnt a wisdom build, really has no other option. Not a huge fan of that either, because it makes the timeinvestment i need to put into those builds disproportionate to the builds final powerlevel when i could just roll a normalmode supercleric instead. (but thats neither here nor there, sorry for rambling offtopic, ima stop now and shut up :lol:)


Great work on the feats fan, i sat down for an hour or so and did some theorycrafting with the builder and didnt come up with further AC outliers, i think there wont be any issues rolling out the dodge AC uncap. That said, i feel maybe tying the AC bonus of inspire defense to cha/10 would be a good idea. I know the basic idea is that bards are going to be either melees or casters so they'd choose either one or the other, but i doubt anyone is going to give up 6 AC over some AB.

(and just for clarification, OP says "greater two weapon fighting changed to....", but i think you mean greater two weapon defense, no?)

Lomir
Posts: 241

Re: Dodge AC Lifting Changes

Post#37 » Fri Jun 17, 2016 7:03 pm

If you change the AC to cap at 5, then you make it so that nobody in their right mind will ever run the AC over the AB. Even on my caster bard, I'd be hard put to ever justify doing that, rather than just hitting epic grandstand and having my minions get a +11 AB.

If you want to tie inspire defense to anything, I'd cap it at something like the cha/10, unless you have X levels of bard, in which case you get the normal amount. Maybe make it so that you have to have 30 levels of bard song progression or something like that to get the full bonus.

Fan
Posts: 576

Re: Dodge AC Lifting Changes

Post#38 » Fri Jun 17, 2016 7:24 pm

Yeah! I mean greater two weapon defense. Already fixed that! Thanks for catching it.

About the bard song, I think melee bard will always run AB song if he knows how to build properly. With the inspiration boost spell (AB song bonus + 1), AB song and AC song gives roughly the same amount, but in RoT/nwn2 1 point of AB usually worths more than 1 point of AC.

Just look at all the feats we choose. There are plenty of +1 AC feats but typically we avoid them. There are also a lot of +1 AB feats but we often choose then. Of course +2 AC feats are very good, but +2 AB feats are extremely rare and must-take feats (Epic Weapon Focus/ Weapon Mastery/ Battle Dancer).

I have a melee bard myself. The conclusion I made by playing with builder is that if I want to run AC song, I should always just adjust my feat plan to take more AC feats and less AB feats. This is especially true after we lift dodge AC cap and more AC feats are available.

Cataca
Posts: 307

Re: Dodge AC Lifting Changes

Post#39 » Fri Jun 17, 2016 7:38 pm

It doesnt make sense for bards to get 10 AC just because *and* make it stack with every other dodge AC ability (one of them aligning perfectly with a bards primary/secondary stat and only requiring a dip and two feats).

I'd agree that caster bards could use some love, but melee bards are already top tier powerbuilds. I think well placed buffs on their spells damage and stormsinger DC adjustment are the way to do that, not make base bards even more of a monster.

(also, 5 AC are the entire line of armor skin feats, basically built in. Thats nothing to sneeze at.)

adam
Posts: 466

Re: Dodge AC Lifting Changes

Post#40 » Fri Jun 17, 2016 11:45 pm

will shield skin stack with the shield spell?

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