[POLL] How should we change Monk AC

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Poll: How should we address AC balance problem around Monk AC

Poll ended at Wed Jun 15, 2016 11:24 am

Don't change Monk AC feat, but adjust other feats
17
74%
Move Monk AC feat to Monk level 8
6
26%
Total votes: 23

Cataca
Posts: 307

Re: [POLL] How should we change Monk AC

Post#21 » Wed Jun 01, 2016 6:37 pm

addict-ant wrote:
Cataca wrote:
In short: If heavy armor builds are viable, dexers without shields are viable. If one of those is not viable, we have a basic balance problem that needs to be addressed, keeping one level monk dips as bandaid fixes is going to do more harm than good in the long run.


I'd like to add my 2 pence worth (as a relative newbie I'm fairly sure it's worth less than that but here goes nothing) because I'm concerned we do have a basic balance problem and to understand my point I think I may need to go back to basic principles:
Surely the original point of skills/feats like evasion, HiPS, defensive roll, self concealment and the like were to give Rogue-like classes combat survivability? ...but in RoT it's the other way around - pure warrior builds (any class mix with high BAB/HP) without these traits are the ones who seem to struggle to survive. To my mind this doesn't seem right.

To expand: high STR+CON warrior builds should = TANK (shouldn't they?) but from what I've read on the forum this isn't the case (please do correct me if I'm wrong). From my own limited experience with trying to perfect my PTWF, the advice I've received is: I must have: monk ac, duelist ac, hips, self-concealment or some combination (all of which is darn good advice). However, I can't help but feel this proves a basic balance problem as IMHO all of these were meant to give a leg-up to classes that needed one rather than a necessity for many builds which is what they seem to be (not to mention I feel they go against the character concept from an RP perspective).

I could go on at length with ideas to improve/balance things (e.g. make weap.spez/parry worth having?) but feel I'm taking too much space as is. In short there doesn't seem enough reward for warrior builds to stay purist and I'm concerned you may actually need to enact both or other options to gain balance. However, I do stress I'm new, I don't have the experience to have a truly informed opinion and I could be very, very wrong...on just about everything :) Just my honest and humble opinion. Thank you for reading.


The reason why all the dex/caster/monk shenanigans are so much better on RoT is that you can actually get stats to 50 for a maximum attribute bonus of 20. The most dex you'll see on normal servers for instance is something along the lines of 30+ 6 for an attribute bonus of 13, which is only barley better than your fullplate would be. You'd also pretty much be starved for stats to throw on wis, thus never getting significantly more than 3-4 AC from that (unlike you are a druid with owls wisdom, which is +12 to wis with enough CL, thus them always beeing prone to one level monk dips, in adition to your wis AC helping wildshape.)

That said, i only ever build stuff that has heavy armor and divine shield/epic mage armor as defense and i have no issue progressing through content. Those two things alone are more than sufficient, you'll hit 100 AC and can basically do all content as long as you dont play braindead.

The issue comes when you compare pure warriors that have hardly any access to AC bonuses and clerics, which basically have all of them. When you start giving out buffs for one class that has low AC, it inevitably gets taken by the high AC classes as well. (see armor skin 1-3) So buffs need to be applied sensibly, and in a way they cant benefit the high AC builds too much.

Loric Elder
Posts: 233

Re: [POLL] How should we change Monk AC

Post#22 » Wed Jun 01, 2016 7:04 pm

Blame The Rogue wrote:i pick the hopefully soon to be added option C) don't change monk. address the ac needs of str builds and non caster builds directly

I never favor the kinds of changes being proposed for monk. it starts there, then next it will be "no more sd 1 dip for hips" it's a slippery slope. a thin line between modding the game engine, and breaking it


wow, I so totally agree,
:( sadly we that choose direct reasoning, seem to be getting drowned out. So much so, that some have even said no one supports my thinking. :? Even though *Brian him self has already agreed. changing monk is not the fair choice. if we can just fix the divergence between casters, and non-casters.

I mean wow, I am just astonished over how absolutely ridiculous some of these others options have become. Instead of just doing this the easy way. Give love to the non-casters, give a bit more love over that to the strength builds, and drop it. Because wow *Poof we will have balance. :roll:
Why spend all this time and effort to go around and around, the obvious quick fix; and destroy some more peoples understanding of building here again, and destroy more peoples builds?
This is just be one more list of changes. That will just become another new pile of hurdles new players will have to comprehend to even begin playing/building a effective build here. :?

*At this rate well have to have a hand out of all the changes to the heart of the play/building dynamics' on this server. :roll:
:(
*Loric

*And for the 50th time: monk dip's doesn't get a 20ac bonus>? Its only 8 over a heavy shield, and 6 over a tower. and that's only after investing all your constitution stat's into wisdom. so to even take a effective monk dip you lose like 400+ hp. or something.

*Edit: I will add.
*Addict-ant,
*You are absolutely correct', many *Strength build fan's would love to see some love simply balanced for the *Strength builds. My self I always preferred the dexterity builds. Not sure how *Cataca's thinking you can solo the server with 100 ac. It could be because he can do it with what he once said was his "weakest build". . :? *Mind you that his "weakest build" is in a full set of the server's famous *Hex *Set Gear. I'm not sure how comparing a character in set gear is fair. In comparison to someone new to the server, in basic crafted gear. It's like a sledge hammer, picking on a pop sickle stick one would think. Or I suppose once again it the new players fault, as he said unless your brain-dead. Give me a break, I've had my cleric/monk dipping cheese build to 3.17 "the boss fight". several times with witness's, "other party members", my character rolling with over 116 ac, at like 35th level. Only to just barely survive, and that was using greater restores', and a rest in the middle. but of course it was simply because as cataca said, our hole group must just be brain-dead :? :roll: .
so don't feel bad if your struggling a bit around 100-110 ac.

*Loric
Last edited by Loric Elder on Wed Jun 01, 2016 8:40 pm, edited 5 times in total.

Blame The Rogue
Posts: 266

Re: [POLL] How should we change Monk AC

Post#23 » Wed Jun 01, 2016 7:12 pm

agreed. you have to invest those pts to wisdom to get the ac

changing monk will break something to fix something else, and isn't the way to go imo

MortisCorpus
Posts: 1536

Re: [POLL] How should we change Monk AC

Post#24 » Wed Jun 01, 2016 7:30 pm

Option C. No change of any kind.

I like that option the best. We tried before and had players quit playing here over it. Any adjustment that adversely effects player population, I am generally against.
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adam
Posts: 466

Re: [POLL] How should we change Monk AC

Post#25 » Wed Jun 01, 2016 7:53 pm

MortisCorpus wrote:Option C. No change of any kind.

I like that option the best. We tried before and had players quit playing here over it. Any adjustment that adversely effects player population, I am generally against.


This x1000

Occam
Posts: 33

Re: [POLL] How should we change Monk AC

Post#26 » Wed Jun 01, 2016 8:16 pm

Option 3. No change

EDIT - The only reason I could see for breaking so many existing characters is if the developers feel there is no other way to balance things to their satisfaction. If that's the case then do what you gotta do.

Cataca
Posts: 307

Re: [POLL] How should we change Monk AC

Post#27 » Wed Jun 01, 2016 9:16 pm

Cataca's thinking you can solo the server with 100 ac. It could be because he can do it with what he once said was his "weakest build". . :? *Mind you that his "weakest build" is in a full set of the server's famous *Hex *Set Gear. I'm not sure how comparing a character in set gear is fair. In comparison to someone new to the server, in basic crafted gear. It's like a sledge hammer, picking on a pop sickle stick one would think. Or I suppose once again it the new players fault, as he said unless your brain-dead. Give me a break, I've had my cleric/monk dipping cheese build to 3.17. several times with witness's, "other party members", my character rolling with over 116 ac, at like 35th level. Only to just barely survive, and that was using greater restores', and a rest in the middle. but of course it was simply because as cataca said, our hole group must just be brain-dead


You yourself said that you have not played in weeks. Did you ever consider that the server downscales since have made things considerably easier? The hexblade set is good, but the matter of the discussion was AC, of which i have 95. By your reasoning my build that has 20 less AC than your build does, i shouldnt be able to do anything.

AC also doesnt matter with the 3.17 boss, it uses spells that ignore immunities. The trick with the boss is to disengage and heal up when you get low, not to sit there and tank it. You could have a zillion AC and you'd still get killed by it if you dont do it properly. Especially in a group, just placing yourself in a circle around it is enough to beat it with zero effort. This is what i meant when i said to aproach content smartly, this is a situation where you analyze why you fail something specific and adapt your play. The enemy has huge amounts of damage that ignore AC (spells)? Dont tank. Disengage and run away if you get low. Disengage and let the boss switch targets if you have summons. Use area silence.

And we already established that your "super cheese cleric build" doesnt have uncanny. So its impressive AC does not apply to every mob you fight, or indeed all the time. This is hardly the fault of the servers balance.

Fact: I can do all story-content with 100 AC on ex, i tested it a couple of days ago.
Fact: You use a build that has incredible amounts of AC, that without uncanny dodge are
a. Not present until you are in combat mode
b. Not present when you get feinted
c. Not present when you get stunned/dazed and what have you.
e. Get worth less the more enemies surround you
Fact: You use an area boss as an argument that your incredible AC cant handle content, when that boss does not care about your AC.
Fact: You have not played since the downscale, your opinion on Mob AB balance is outdated.

I dont expect to solo endgame group content like drow castle and the abyss on ex, but its certainly not impossible to do if you play careful. So i stand by my opinion, 100 AC is enough to do all content. The one level monk-dip nerf will not do anything to break any builds.


But, that is all beside the point. Look at the poll, its not happening anyway.

gazoo
Posts: 296

Re: [POLL] How should we change Monk AC

Post#28 » Wed Jun 01, 2016 9:55 pm

Any adjustment that adversely effects player population


I suppose if this is the prevailing opinion, then truly the only way to go is to add to possibilities of non-monk dips.

**1) +7 AC across the board. Not a feat- just a simple login adjustment or perhaps a shard feat. No adverse effect on monk dips. Just balances things. Breaks no builds at all - no adverse effect to your monk-dip.

**2) Or give a selection of feats that allow stacking natural AC based on int, charisma, strength, etc to all non-monk types, up to +1 per bonus. Breaks no builds at all.

We might as well call a spade a spade. The dip is purely for the AC, so might as well admit and go with it in multiple feats via various stats. It's been stated by both sides that it's not about Monk, it's about the AC.

One common argument (mostly by wisdom-based build-holders unsurprisingly) is that you need to invest in 50 wisdom - similarly this argument can be made for every stat. One can argue a bunch of other AC feats based on other stats requires no less investment, when it involves your primary stat. Everyone can have their lovely little AC bonus, in this case.

***Of course, you could only pick one of these feats, but which stat you choose is up to you.

:roll: Most of the opposition have favorite builds relying on the 1 dip for satisfaction -- so that's fine. But let's open it up then.

Loric Elder
Posts: 233

Re: [POLL] How should we change Monk AC

Post#29 » Wed Jun 01, 2016 10:25 pm

*Cataca':
- ill be surprised if things have changed that much in 2 weeks, I guess ill see when I get back. if so cool.
- yes, I would think a new player in crafted gear with 95 ac would struggle, as mine do.
- I'm forced to consider that the hex set is that good.

- yes this line of server course correction probably should consider the potential over need of *Uncanny dodge.
- another obvious potential fun killer is the damage that pass through our resistance's, and immunity's.

- as to the ridiculousness of considering we, "Those in the groups". didn't consider how to play the area smartly. .? :? ill just let that slide, again . :roll:
- A melee build is not trying to tank just because it needs to run to the spawn to hit. :roll: yes this particular dragon slings damage all over the place. It can be easier sad than done to dodge it. Heaven forbid if you get hit with lag. No one in the groups were brain dead/ "not playing smart" if they got hit.
- You forget dipping cost us a lot of health so getting hit with 400+ damage hurts. Those that *Dip pay for it. So I guess those cheesing characters aren't so cheese-able after all. Its not easy. . being cheesy :D :lol: :roll:
- sure this area might be a special case, via' dragon's breath of death. Sadly truly, it was not a walk in the park for the guys with me to even get to the boss. *But if 2 weeks has made that much of a difference in server's state, then ill stand corrected as to the required ac range. Alternatively though if that is the case, it still hasn't brought balance to the caster/ non-caster issues'; or people wouldn't still be suggesting the monk dip. Changing monk still wont fix that.
- The simplest fix for that is to simply add some love for the strength builds, and non-casters
- as to the server balance, it actually is a *example. as I said been there many times, with *multiple group's. *"Says it slower so you hear that part". it wasn't only my builds vaporized. were talking about at least 6 other builds that were there, beyond my own.
- its been established so many times now it *will break builds to nerf monk, it's sadly apparent.
- as to what happens, who's to say. Who would have thought there be a post of this sort without a control group represented. Save by the power of the people them selves.

*Loric

adam
Posts: 466

Re: [POLL] How should we change Monk AC

Post#30 » Wed Jun 01, 2016 11:11 pm

there is no precedent on ROT for nerfing a base class, period. It is not in the spirit of ROT. It will break builds, confuse new players, and only fix the AC problem with divine casters (which is the problem in the first place, not Monk at all). Please abandon this, and have a serious discussion that not only addresses the real problem (not my words at all. I don't think there is a REAL problem.), but is also in line with the history of ROT.

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