What spells need love? Give us your opinions.

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Molag__Bal
Posts: 272

Re: What spells need love? Give us your opinions.

Post#21 » Fri Mar 28, 2014 5:30 pm

Like all spellcasters, warlocks have some very good invocations and some terrible invocations to choose from. With only 3 invocations to choose from at each level (12 in total), it is necessary to make sure each invocation is useful. This means that most warlocks on ROT end up taking the same invocations, with only a few variances depending on play style. I went through the list of invocations that haven't been modified to suit ROT's power level, and made some suggestions that could make them more attractive.

Brimstone Blast
Current Form: A brimstone blast deals fire damage. Any creature struck by a brimstone blast must succeed on a Reflex save or catch on fire, taking 2d6 points of fire damage per round until the duration expires. The fire damage persists for 1 round per five class levels you have. A creature burning in this way never takes more than 2d6 points of fire damage in a round, even if it has been hit by more than one brimstone blast.
Suggested Change: ...must succeed on a Reflex save or catch on fire, taking [2d6 +1d6 per five levels over 11 + 5 per ER] points of fire damage per round until the duration expires. The fire damage persists for 1 round per five class levels you have. A creature burning in this way never takes more than [2d6 +1d6 per five levels over 11 + 5 per ER] points of fire damage in a round, even if it has been hit by more than one brimstone blast. Used the same damage formula as vitriolic blast, but unlike vitriolic blast this one doesn't stack with itself and has a reflex save.

Damage per Round (on failed reflex save):
Current Form: 7 on average
Suggested Change, Level 30 ER0: 21 on average
Suggested Change, Level 40 ER5: 53 on average


Caustic Web
Current Form: Sticky strands cling to all creatures within the area of effect (40'), reducing their movement speed by 50%. Entering the web causes 2d6 points of acid damage while those that remain within the area suffer 1d6 points of damage each round.
Suggested Change: Entering the web causes [2d6 + 1d6 per 5 levels + 5 per ER] points of acid damage. Those that remain within the area suffer [1d6 + 1d6 per 5 levels + 5 per ER] points of damage each round.

Damage per Round:
Current Form: 7 entering; 3.5 ongoing
Suggested Change, Level 30 ER0: 28 entering; 24.5 ongoing
Suggested Change, Level 40 ER5: 60 entering; 56.5 ongoing


Draining Blast
Current Form:In addition to normal eldritch blast damage, the draining blast forces any creature struck to make a Will save or become slowed for 1 round. A slowed creature moves and attacks at a drastically reduced rate, taking a -1 penalty on attack rolls, AC, and Reflex saves and moving at half its normal speed. Multiple slow effects don't stack. This invocation counters and dispels haste. Note: Freedom of Movement completely blocks the effects of this invocation.
Suggested Change: ...forces any creature struck to make a Will save or become slowed for [1 + 1 per 5 levels + 2 per ER] round(s). A slowed creature moves and attacks at a drastically reduced rate, taking a -1 penalty on attack rolls, AC, and Reflex saves and moving at half its normal speed. Multiple slow effects don't stack. This invocation counters and dispels haste.

Effects per Round:
Current Form: Will save negates; 1 round duration; -1 to AB, AC, reflex saves. Blocked by Freedom of Movement.
Suggested Change, Level 30 ER0: Will save negates; 7 round duration; -1 to AB, AC, reflex saves. Blocked by Freedom of Movement.
Suggested Change, Level 40 ER5: Will save negates; 19 round duration; -1 to AB, AC, reflex saves. Blocked by Freedom of Movement.


Ignore the Pyre
Current Form: When you use this invocation, you gain remarkable resilience to any one energy type (acid, cold, electricity, fire, or sonic). For 24 hours, you gain resistance equal to your invocation caster level against the energy type of your choice. If this invocation is used again before the duration expires, the previous casting is removed.
Suggested Change: ...resilience to any one energy type (acid, cold, electricity, fire, or sonic). For 24 hours, you gain resistance equal to [your invocation caster level + 10 per ER] against the energy type of your choice. If this invocation is used again before the duration expires, the previous casting is removed.

Damage Resistance:
Current Form, Level 30 ER0: 30/- to element of choice
Current Form, Level 40 ER5: 40/- to element of choice
Suggested Change, Level 30 ER0: 30/- to element of choice
Suggested Change, Level 40 ER5: 90/- to element of choice


Instill Vulnerability
Current Form: You imbue a single creature within 30 feet with 50% vulnerability to a particular type of energy (acid, cold, electricity, fire, or sonic). A successful Fortitude save negates the effect. The vulnerability lasts for 24 hours or until you use the invocation on the creature a second time, in which case the first effect ends and the new vulnerability and duration take effect.
Suggested Change: You imbue a single creature within 30 feet with [50% + 5% per ER] vulnerability to a particular type of energy (acid, cold, electricity, fire, or sonic). You gain a DC bonus of +1 per ER. A successful Fortitude save negates the effect.

Effects:
Current Form, Level 30 ER0: 50% vulnerability for 24 hours
Current Form, Level 40 ER5: 50% vulnerability for 24 hours
Suggested Change, Level 30 ER0: 50% vulnerability for 24 hours
Suggested Change, Level 40 ER5: 75% vulnerability for 24 hours; +5 to DC


Leaps and Bounds
Current Form: You invoke this ability to gain amazing agility. This gives you a +4 Dexterity bonus and a +4 bonus to your Tumble skill for 24 hours.
Suggested Change: You invoke this ability to gain amazing agility. This gives you a [+4 + 1 per 7 levels + 1 per ER] Dexterity bonus (capped at +12) and a [+4 + 2 per ER] bonus to your Tumble skill for 24 hours.

Effects:
Current Form: +4 dexterity; +4 tumble
Suggested Change, Level 30 ER0: +8 dexterity; +4 tumble
Suggested Change, Level 40 ER5: +12 dexterity; +14 tumble


Undead Bane Blast
Current Form: This eldritch essence invocation allows you to change your eldritch blast into an undead bane blast. Undead take an additional +2d6 damage from this essence.
Suggested Change: ...Undead take an additional [2d6 +1d6 per five levels over 11 + 5 per ER] damage from this essence. Used the same damage formula as vitriolic blast.

Additional Damage to Undead:
Current Form: 7 on average
Suggested Change, Level 30 ER0: 21 on average
Suggested Change, Level 40 ER5: 53 on average

MadMage999
Posts: 868

Re: What spells need love? Give us your opinions.

Post#22 » Fri Mar 28, 2014 9:57 pm

That's quite a mouthful, Molag. :-)

Well, I actually agree with you, the OP invocations need to be scaled back and the UP scaled up.

Not sure if Aghost is working on this already or not, I'll PM him.

As for the updated changes to creeping doom, creeping cold, greater creeping cold, and spike growth. They are now live on beta, ready for testing.
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ghfjy
Posts: 208

Re: What spells need love? Give us your opinions.

Post#23 » Sun Mar 30, 2014 12:35 pm

Cloudkill is for some reason considered a conjuration spell. Maybe a little buff and switch to necromancy could help? According to nwn2wiki http://nwn2.wikia.com/wiki/Cloudkill it should be. I am not entirely sure on how it could be buffed however.

eidolon
Posts: 207

Re: What spells need love? Give us your opinions.

Post#24 » Sun Mar 30, 2014 12:42 pm

ghfjy wrote:Cloudkill is for some reason considered a conjuration spell.


http://www.dandwiki.com/wiki/SRD:Cloudkill says it should be Conjuration in PnP.

A number of the nwn2wiki spell school classifications are just wrong (e.g., several of the Power Word line of spells are Enchantment, but nwn2wiki lists them all as Divination). I guess this is another one.

ghfjy
Posts: 208

Re: What spells need love? Give us your opinions.

Post#25 » Sun Mar 30, 2014 1:15 pm

Dern it. Thought i did my homework on that one!

Edit: I guess this qualifies as one of the most unecessary posts :D anyway, its a cool spell. Might need a little buff though.

MadMage999
Posts: 868

Re: What spells need love? Give us your opinions.

Post#26 » Mon Mar 31, 2014 2:00 am

Cloudkill. Okay I'll look at it.

I've adjusted the Arcane Spell Evard's black tentacles and submitted the changes for approval.

Updated Description would read (if approved):

A field of thick rubbery tentacles rises from the ground. For every round that a creature is caught within the area of effect, it suffers attacks from 1d4 tentacles, each capable of doing 1d4 points per four caster levels of bludgeoning damage, plus 10 points per Epic Relevel. If any tentacle attack hits a target that target must then make a Fortitude saving throw or become paralyzed.

Change: Bonus points of damage per ER scaled back to 10 from 25.

I also made the Warlock Invocation Chilling tentacles do the same base damage plus it's usual cold damage, however in looking at the description I realize it was using charisma bonus to determine damage not caster level, so there may be some objection, especially from hybrid warlock/clerics or other hybrids of warlock.

Updated description would read (if approved):

This invocation allows you to conjure forth a field of soul chilling tentacles that ooze from the ground, groping for victims. Each round, the field of tentacles does 1d4 per every four invoker levels plus 10 per epic relevel in bludgeoning damage to all within the field, plus 2d6 cold damage. Chance of target being grappled is a d20 plus invoker level +8 vs a d20 + strength modifier +base attack bonus of the target. The grapple effect is re-rolled every round for affected targets. No spell resistance applies. Duration is 1 round per invoker level. Cold damage increases to 2d6+3 per round, + 5% to grapple chance success. Cold damage increases by 1d6+3 and +10% grapple chance success for each epic relevel attained.

Change: Base damage is 1d4 per four invoker levels plus 10 per ER, rather than 1d6+ invokers charisma bonus x 2. This is identical to arcane spell Evard's black tentacles, except that the warlock invocation also gets cold damage. The grapple check is also changed to d20 + invoker level +8 vs. d20 +strength modifier and BAB of the target added together, which is also identical to arcane spell evard's black tentacles except warlock's get increases to grapple chance per ER and (???) per round?

Essentially the idea was to put warlocks and arcanes on a more or less even footing with regard to their tentacles spells. The arcane spell was too powerful at high ERs and in my opinion the warlock invocation was too weak.

There is no guarantee this will be approved or that it will be the final revision even if it is. I do plan to take careful consideration of Molag__Bal's warlock suggestions into account and may very well release something very similar to them for approval.

I didn't read the warlock description carefully or I might have taken a different approach, since it seems to have been Charisma based rather than CL based. I had already submitted my changes before I saw this, so it may change back with some adjustments still to boost damage which I felt was too low and put the invocation on par with the arcane spell.
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Molag__Bal
Posts: 272

Re: What spells need love? Give us your opinions.

Post#27 » Mon Mar 31, 2014 2:20 pm

MadMage999 wrote:The arcane spell was too powerful at high ERs and in my opinion the warlock invocation was too weak.

To be honest, I think that chilling tentacles works just fine as it is. In the later chapters, the physical damage tends to get blocked to a large extent, but it is still somewhat useful against a cluster of enemies thanks to the cold damage. I'd just leave that one alone, since the damage has been based on charisma bonus x2 for a very long time now, and players have built their warlocks to take advantage of that.

Also, keep in mind that warlocks only have two persistent damage spells to choose from: chilling tentacles and wall of perilous flame. The latter is fairly mediocre, and since it only creates a small wall you are usually better off using chilling tentacles when facing a cluster of enemies. Arcanes have a wide range of cloud spells to choose from, all of which can be stacked. I've stacked grease, evards, cloud of bewilderment, stinking cloud and incendiary cloud with my sorcerer. This means enemies are making a reflex save (grease), two fortitude saves (bewilderment and stinking cloud), no save (evards) and a reflex save (incendiary cloud) every round.

So be a bit careful when trying to make warlock spells match arcane spells. You need to keep in mind that the arcane spells can be stacked and they have a lot of options to choose from, while warlocks just have their tentacles. Warlocks only get 12 invocations in total, so they all need to be useful.

MadMage999
Posts: 868

Re: What spells need love? Give us your opinions.

Post#28 » Mon Mar 31, 2014 5:21 pm

I asked Brian to leave it as is.

I do like your proposed warlock changes, but I won't be here for the next two weeks starting the 2nd.

If noone has done something with them by the time I get back I'll probably do something close to the proposal.
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Molag__Bal
Posts: 272

Re: What spells need love? Give us your opinions.

Post#29 » Mon Mar 31, 2014 7:58 pm

I don't think there's a big rush on any of them. I'd just suggest holding off on nerfing anything (tenacious plague) until some of the underpowered invocations get a boost. That will help to reduce the pain a bit :D.

Valariax
Posts: 427

Re: What spells need love? Give us your opinions.

Post#30 » Thu Apr 10, 2014 6:58 am

Molag__Bal wrote:Like all spellcasters, warlocks have some very good invocations and some terrible invocations to choose from. With only 3 invocations to choose from at each level (12 in total), it is necessary to make sure each invocation is useful. This means that most warlocks on ROT end up taking the same invocations, with only a few variances depending on play style. I went through the list of invocations that haven't been modified to suit ROT's power level, and made some suggestions that could make them more attractive.

I agree with Molag_Bal, and I would like to add a few more suggestions using the same format (Thanks, Molag!). I didn't re-evaluate the listed RoT-modified spells, or those that depend on ability modifiers, or consider any Least Invocations, but those may be worth a look, too. Here are my proposals:
Beshadowed Blast -- Invocation Type: Lesser; Eldritch Essence -- Spell Level Equivalent: 4
Current Form: This eldritch essence invocation allows you to change your eldritch blast into a beshadowed blast. Any living creature struck by a beshadowed blast must succeed on a Fortitude save or be blinded for 1 round, giving it a 50% chance to miss in combat, removing any Dexterity bonuses to AC, adding an additional -2 penalty to AC, and causing it to move at half speed.
Suggested Change: ... must succeed on a Fortitude save or be blinded for [1 +1/ER] round(s), giving it a 50% chance to miss in combat, removing any Dexterity bonuses to AC, adding an additional -2 penalty to AC, and causing it to move at half speed.

Effects:
Current Form: Fortitude save negates; 1 round duration; 50% chance to miss in combat, removing any Dexterity bonuses to AC, adding an additional -2 penalty to AC, and causing it to move at 50% speed.
Suggested Change, Level 30 ER0: Same as current form.
Suggested Change, Level 30 ER1: Fortitude save negates; 2 rounds duration; same effects as current form.
Suggested Change, Level 40 ER5: Fortitude save negates; 6 rounds duration; same effects as current form.


Dark Premonition -- Invocation Type: Dark -- Spell Level Equivalent: 9
Current Form: Your dark powers allow you to glimpse the future, granting you damage reduction 10/alchemical silver for 10 minutes per warlock level. However, once you've taken 10 points of melee damage per caster level (maximum 150 points of damage at level 15), the effect ends immediately.
Suggested Change: ... granting you damage reduction [10 + 2 per ER]/alchemical silver for 10 minutes per warlock level.

Effects:
Current Form: DR 10/alchemical silver for 10 minutes per warlock level; maximum 150 points of damage at level 15
Suggested Change, Level 30 ER0: Same as current form.
Suggested Change, Level 30 ER1: DR 12/alchemical silver for 10 minutes per warlock level; maximum 150 points of damage
Suggested Change, Level 40 ER5: DR 20/alchemical silver for 10 minutes per warlock level; maximum 150 points of damage


Dread Seizure -- Invocation Level: Lesser -- Spell Level Equivalent: 4
Current Form: You speak a word that sends wracking pain through the limbs of a single target creature within 60 feet. Though these seizures are not powerful enough to immobilize the creature, they do reduce its movement speed by 50%. The target also takes a -5 penalty to all attacks it makes. These effects last for 3 rounds; a successful Fortitude save negates the effects.
Suggested Change: ... The target also takes a [-5 plus -1/ER] penalty to all attacks it makes. These effects last for [3 +1/ER] rounds; a successful Fortitude save negates the effects.

Effects:
Current Form: Fortitude save negates; single target; 3 round duration; movement speed reduced 50%; -5 penalty to all attacks.
Suggested Change, Level 30 ER0: Same as current form.
Suggested Change, Level 30 ER1: Fortitude save negates; single target; 4 round duration; movement speed reduced 50%; -6 penalty to all attacks.
Suggested Change, Level 40 ER5: Fortitude save negates; single target; 8 round duration; movement speed reduced 50%; -10 penalty to all attacks.


There are some who say warlocks on RoT are already too powerful. Note that none of these suggestions change the invocations until ER1, and the changes are only tied to ER. I don't think these suggested changes would change play-balance; rather they may provide incentives to add some variety to warlock invocation selection during ER re-leveling.
Nevertheless, if it's desired to make them more attractive/effective pre-ER then a change where they increase for a dedicated warlock, such as every 7 warlock levels, or every 5 levels after 11 could be considered.
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