Bard casting Proposal!

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fox
Posts: 251

Re: Bard casting Proposal!

Post#21 » Mon Apr 19, 2021 12:29 pm

kc2345 wrote:Tested on beta and things seem more or less to work as expected. Nothing appears to be destabilizing the server. I also made the following observations:

1) There should be more spells added from level 7-9. Currently, the selection is far too narrow, meaning a level 40 bard is able to learn almost all the spells. I suggest adding the following:

Level 7:
Greater Shadow Conjuration
Heal
Mass Cure Serious Wounds
Mass Invisibility

Level 8:
Finger of Death
Lion's Roar
Mass Blindness/Deafness
Mass Cure Critical Wounds
Greater Shadow Evocation

Level 9:
Summon Creature IX (currently missing)

2) Summon Creature VIII (8) has a bad strref, and summons a treant instead of the intended Earth Elemental. Perhaps this is the wrong version of the spell? Summon IX is completely missing.

3) Resonating Bolt is far too strong with Empower/Maximize due to its 2d6+2/CL scaling. I'm actually hitting over 1,500 per cast with a max level bard with Lyric Thaumaturge, Sonic Might, and the Curse Song debuff. I would recommend changing it to 2d4+4/CL. This keeps the base damage constant for the non-metamagic spell, but reduces the impact of Empower/Maximize on this spell.

4) Sympathetic Vibrations cannot be Empowered/Maximized. I recommend either reducing the dice-based component and enabling Empower/Maximize, or just leaving it as-is.

5) Quicken/Auto-Quicken do not need to be custom added for bards anymore, as they can hit the base requirements of level 9 spells on their own now. We can just leave it as-is, but now we see 2 instances of AQ1-6 due to qualifying for both the base feat and the custom bard feat.

6) Would also recommend adding the "Heal" skill to the bard's list of known skills.

There are other QOL things that can be added to Lyric Thaumaturge, and level 7-9 slots for bard gear, but these are things to do in future.



KC's findings match my findings during testing perfectly, except I think bard already get mass blindness at 6?

kc2345
Posts: 841

Re: Bard casting Proposal!

Post#22 » Mon Apr 19, 2021 6:49 pm

They do, but the level 6 bard spell does not also inflict deafness.
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fox
Posts: 251

Re: Bard casting Proposal!

Post#23 » Mon Apr 19, 2021 7:02 pm

kc2345 wrote:They do, but the level 6 bard spell does not also inflict deafness.

Perfect than.

kc2345
Posts: 841

Re: Bard casting Proposal!

Post#24 » Tue Apr 20, 2021 7:59 am

Did more Beta testing of bard spells and noted the following issues as well (unrelated to the proposed level 7-9 spells)

1) It seems Lyric Thaumaturge is getting a hidden +2 to spell DCs. Tested my DCs on beta vs live, and have noted that the Lyric Thaumaturge build is getting an unexplained +2 DC to all spells (this is on top of DC bonuses from the +4 CL at LT10). This should either be removed completely, or a feat added to the LT class to make it official. I did some digging, and this seems to be a legacy change that did not get imported into the new class descriptions.

2) Hold Person (Bard/Cleric Level 2, Wizard 3) DCs are messed up. I am getting mid 50s DCs when all my other level 2 spells have low 60s DC. Clerics/FSes casting this spell also face similar issues with DC.

The Bard "Hold Person" also bypasses all immunity and saves. Recommend to fix the DC and remove the immunity bypass - with level 9 spells and their newly revised songs/abilities, I don't think there is good reason for them to be able to also completely lock down any humanoid with no save/immunity.
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fox
Posts: 251

Re: Bard casting Proposal!

Post#25 » Tue Apr 20, 2021 5:08 pm

fox wrote:Expand Bard to 9 casting levels
Edit: The ones in red are my suggestions to finish the transition. I think the healing line makes them too OP still so have omitted for now.

Level 7
Banishment Caster Level(s): Cleric 6, Wizard / Sorcerer 7
Ethereal Jaunt Caster Level(s): Cleric 7, Wizard / Sorcerer 7
Hiss of Sleep Caster Level(s): Wizard / Sorcerer 7
Mordenkainen's Sword Caster Level(s): Wizard / Sorcerer 7
Summon Creature VII Caster Level(s): Cleric 7, Druid 7, Wizard / Sorcerer 7
True Seeing Caster Level(s): Cleric 5, Druid 7, Wizard / Sorcerer 6, Knowledge 4, Animal 4
Regenerate Caster Level(s): Cleric 7, Druid 6, Ranger 3
Power Word Blind Caster Level(s): Wizard / Sorcerer 7
Feeblemind Caster Level(s): Wizard / Sorcerer 5
Mass Invisibility Caster Level(s): Wizard / Sorcerer 7
Resurrection Caster Level(s): Cleric 7

Level 8
Prismatic Spray Caster Level(s): Wizard / Sorcerer 7
Solipsism Caster Level(s): Wizard/Sorcerer 7
Iron Body Caster Level(s): Wizard / Sorcerer 8
Mass Charm Monster Caster Level(s): Wizard / Sorcerer 8
Mind Blank Caster Level(s): Wizard / Sorcerer 8
Summon Creature VIII Caster Level(s): Cleric 8, Druid 8, Wizard / Sorcerer 8
Mass Blindness/Deafness Caster Level(s): Wizard / Sorcerer 8
Power Word Stun Caster Level(s): Wizard / Sorcerer 8
Greater Shadow Evocation Caster Level(s): Wizard / Sorcerer 7
Shadow Shield Caster Level(s): Wizard / Sorcerer 7

Level 9
Dominate Monster Caster Level(s): Wizard / Sorcerer 9
Etherealness Caster Level(s): Cleric 9, Wizard / Sorcerer 9
Mass Hold Monster Caster Level(s): Wizard / Sorcerer 9
Mordenkainen's Disjunction Caster Level(s): Wizard / Sorcerer 9
Shadow Simulacrum Caster Level(s): Wizard/Sorcerer 9
Summon Creature IX Caster Level(s): Cleric 9, Druid 9, Wizard / Sorcerer 9
Weird Caster Level(s): Wizard / Sorcerer 9, Evil 9
Power Word Kill Caster Level(s): Wizard / Sorcerer 9, Death 9
Shades Caster Level(s): Wizard / Sorcerer 9

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Re: Bard casting Proposal!

Post#26 » Tue Apr 20, 2021 6:07 pm

1. Fixed, 2. Fixed Removed the override trash., still working on DCs.

kc2345 wrote:Did more Beta testing of bard spells and noted the following issues as well (unrelated to the proposed level 7-9 spells)

1) It seems Lyric Thaumaturge is getting a hidden +2 to spell DCs. Tested my DCs on beta vs live, and have noted that the Lyric Thaumaturge build is getting an unexplained +2 DC to all spells (this is on top of DC bonuses from the +4 CL at LT10). This should either be removed completely, or a feat added to the LT class to make it official. I did some digging, and this seems to be a legacy change that did not get imported into the new class descriptions.

2) Hold Person (Bard/Cleric Level 2, Wizard 3) DCs are messed up. I am getting mid 50s DCs when all my other level 2 spells have low 60s DC. Clerics/FSes casting this spell also face similar issues with DC.

The Bard "Hold Person" also bypasses all immunity and saves. Recommend to fix the DC and remove the immunity bypass - with level 9 spells and their newly revised songs/abilities, I don't think there is good reason for them to be able to also completely lock down any humanoid with no save/immunity.
Brian Bloom

Realms of Trinity Executive Producer & Game Creator
http://www.realmsoftrinity.com

bsb5652
Site Admin
Posts: 3132
Contact:

Re: Bard casting Proposal!

Post#27 » Tue Apr 20, 2021 6:08 pm

Added additional spells listed in below, fixed up the monster summoning VIII and IX.

fox wrote:
fox wrote:Expand Bard to 9 casting levels
Edit: The ones in red are my suggestions to finish the transition. I think the healing line makes them too OP still so have omitted for now.

Level 7
Banishment Caster Level(s): Cleric 6, Wizard / Sorcerer 7
Ethereal Jaunt Caster Level(s): Cleric 7, Wizard / Sorcerer 7
Hiss of Sleep Caster Level(s): Wizard / Sorcerer 7
Mordenkainen's Sword Caster Level(s): Wizard / Sorcerer 7
Summon Creature VII Caster Level(s): Cleric 7, Druid 7, Wizard / Sorcerer 7
True Seeing Caster Level(s): Cleric 5, Druid 7, Wizard / Sorcerer 6, Knowledge 4, Animal 4
Regenerate Caster Level(s): Cleric 7, Druid 6, Ranger 3
Power Word Blind Caster Level(s): Wizard / Sorcerer 7
Feeblemind Caster Level(s): Wizard / Sorcerer 5
Mass Invisibility Caster Level(s): Wizard / Sorcerer 7
Resurrection Caster Level(s): Cleric 7

Level 8
Prismatic Spray Caster Level(s): Wizard / Sorcerer 7
Solipsism Caster Level(s): Wizard/Sorcerer 7
Iron Body Caster Level(s): Wizard / Sorcerer 8
Mass Charm Monster Caster Level(s): Wizard / Sorcerer 8
Mind Blank Caster Level(s): Wizard / Sorcerer 8
Summon Creature VIII Caster Level(s): Cleric 8, Druid 8, Wizard / Sorcerer 8
Mass Blindness/Deafness Caster Level(s): Wizard / Sorcerer 8
Power Word Stun Caster Level(s): Wizard / Sorcerer 8
Greater Shadow Evocation Caster Level(s): Wizard / Sorcerer 7
Shadow Shield Caster Level(s): Wizard / Sorcerer 7

Level 9
Dominate Monster Caster Level(s): Wizard / Sorcerer 9
Etherealness Caster Level(s): Cleric 9, Wizard / Sorcerer 9
Mass Hold Monster Caster Level(s): Wizard / Sorcerer 9
Mordenkainen's Disjunction Caster Level(s): Wizard / Sorcerer 9
Shadow Simulacrum Caster Level(s): Wizard/Sorcerer 9
Summon Creature IX Caster Level(s): Cleric 9, Druid 9, Wizard / Sorcerer 9
Weird Caster Level(s): Wizard / Sorcerer 9, Evil 9
Power Word Kill Caster Level(s): Wizard / Sorcerer 9, Death 9
Shades Caster Level(s): Wizard / Sorcerer 9
Brian Bloom

Realms of Trinity Executive Producer & Game Creator
http://www.realmsoftrinity.com

bsb5652
Site Admin
Posts: 3132
Contact:

Re: Bard casting Proposal!

Post#28 » Tue Apr 20, 2021 6:09 pm

Added skill to bards.

kc2345 wrote:Tested on beta and things seem more or less to work as expected. Nothing appears to be destabilizing the server. I also made the following observations:

6) Would also recommend adding the "Heal" skill to the bard's list of known skills.

Brian Bloom

Realms of Trinity Executive Producer & Game Creator
http://www.realmsoftrinity.com

kc2345
Posts: 841

Re: Bard casting Proposal!

Post#29 » Wed Apr 21, 2021 9:43 am

Did more testing and most things seem to be working fine.

Some issues/suggestions:
1) Resonating Bolt is still at 2d6+2 per CL. Recommend adjusting this to 2d4+4 per CL as this spell currently hits insane damage numbers with Empower/Maximize

2) Hold Person DC is still incorrectly low. The unexplained extra +2 DC from LT is now removed.

3) Sonic Might is somewhat annoying to keep up as it lasts a maximum of only 10 rounds (1 min). Would recommend changing it from 1 round/LT level to 4 rounds/LT level (so it lasts 40 rounds at LT10) - reducing the need to keep refreshing it.

4) Clap of Thunder is properly autoquickened (thanks to fan), but the damage is still far too weak to be of practical use, and the DC is not properly scaled. Recommend changing the damage scaling formula to 2d8 sonic per bardsong level, +5% per ER (450 at level 40 bardsong, ER5). Also recommend adding "If you have 8 levels of Lyric Thaumaturge, your Clap of Thunder will lower enemy sonic damage immunity 1% per bardic song level you have." (copy code from Curse Song).

5) Perhaps we can add Mass Cure Serious Wounds at level 7? Level 7 doesn't seem to have any really good spells atm.
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fox
Posts: 251

Re: Bard casting Proposal!

Post#30 » Wed Apr 21, 2021 12:36 pm

Level 7 is going to be full uses of maximized res bolts or shouts. You now get maximized mass mod cure at 9 if you want heal focused bard. I think bards look real good right now, only need some spell slots. Their defensive spells are better, their damage output is better, I think we roll out these moderate changes and look to create a few bard specific spells in the future.
Specifically we pilfered every Illusion and Enchantment spell from other classes, with only 2 exceptions, Glass Doppleganger, and Blackstaff. So i think we should stick to the theme, again taking them away from arcane and into the realm of divine was not my intent. They have moderate healing spells and regeneration spell and regeneration/heal songs! They are good.

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