Bard casting Proposal!

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Samyx
Posts: 809

Re: Bard casting Proposal!

Post#11 » Sun Apr 11, 2021 2:41 am

Hello
So, what about Fox's proposal about pushing bards to level 9 ?
Samyx

bsb5652
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Re: Bard casting Proposal!

Post#12 » Sun Apr 11, 2021 1:42 pm

It's definitely on the table and probably will happen if the engine allows it.
Brian Bloom

Realms of Trinity Executive Producer & Game Creator
http://www.realmsoftrinity.com

kc2345
Posts: 841

Re: Bard casting Proposal!

Post#13 » Tue Apr 13, 2021 7:15 am

Perhaps it would be a good idea to see if it is even possible?

There are additional issues, like bard spell slot itemization, feat support, spell damage numbers, etc... that need to be addressed if this does come to pass, but if the engine does not even allow it in the first place, this is pretty much moot.

If this is an engine limitation, perhaps we could settle on adding spells to their existing 6 spell levels to cover certain gaps?
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fox
Posts: 251

Re: Bard casting Proposal!

Post#14 » Tue Apr 13, 2021 11:45 am

kc2345 wrote:Perhaps it would be a good idea to see if it is even possible?
On it.

kc2345 wrote:There are additional issues, like bard spell slot itemization, feat support, spell damage numbers, etc... that need to be addressed if this does come to pass, but if the engine does not even allow it in the first place, this is pretty much moot.
Right, there is more to consider but not if it not. So we chill and find out.

kc2345 wrote:If this is an engine limitation, perhaps we could settle on adding spells to their existing 6 spell levels to cover certain gaps?
Cross this bridge if we get to it.

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Re: Bard casting Proposal!

Post#15 » Wed Apr 14, 2021 6:42 pm

I think it will work based on my tests. i just copied over sorcerer progression 2das to bard, and you can get 7, 8, 9. The thing is that I will have to update all the spells 2da entries to associate them to the higher bard levels so they can be selected at that level.
Brian Bloom

Realms of Trinity Executive Producer & Game Creator
http://www.realmsoftrinity.com

fox
Posts: 251

Re: Bard casting Proposal!

Post#16 » Wed Apr 14, 2021 9:23 pm

The only spell from bard that would be out of hand with empower or maximize, suggest moving to lvl 8

Sympathetic Vibrations Caster Level(s): Bard 6
Innate Level: 6
School: Evocation
Descriptor(s) : Sonic
Components: Verbal and Somatic
Range: Personal
Area of Effect / Target: Huge
Save: Fortitude Negates
Spell Resistance: No

You attune yourself to all enemies in the area. As a result, the spell courses through opponents, tearing limbs and flesh with relative ease. You deal 2d10 per Caster Level in sonic damage. Creatures that fail the save are stunned, while those that succeed negate the effect and take half damage.

kc2345
Posts: 841

Re: Bard casting Proposal!

Post#17 » Thu Apr 15, 2021 9:13 am

Putting up some ideas on how to do this as a checklist:

1) Level 7-9 Spells to be added:
Generally have no issue with fox's suggestions, but would also add "Mass Cure Serious Wounds" at 7 and "Mass Cure Critical Wounds" at 8 to continue the trend of bards getting cure spells from levels 0-6.

Would also suggest adding "Heal" to the list of the bard's known skills as the skill is now used to scale the "Cure" spells that bards get.

2) Spell Damage Numbers:
2 spells will be broken in terms of damage with the introduction of level 7-9 spells. "Sympathetic Vibrations" has already been mentioned by fox, and the other is "Sound Blast".

"Sound Blast" is currently bugged for bards and is doing (1d8+1d10)/CL instead of 1d10 per CL as per its description.

I do not think moving "Sympathetic Vibrations" up to level 8 is a good approach, as it will nerf current AQ6 bards that do not want to burn additional feats to progress to AQ8. Instead, I propose changing the damage dice from 2d10/CL to (2d4+6)/CL. This gives it identical average damage without metamagic modifiers, but significantly reduces its scaling with Empower/Maximize.

"Sound Blast" can perhaps be set to a flat d12/CL to keep it powerful, but in line with other spells of similar level.

3) Feat Support:
AQ7, AQ8, and AQ9 need to be custom added for bards so that they can get access to full autoquicken.

4) Itemization
Bard items need re-itemization to accommodate the new 7-9 slots, or we will end up in a situation where bards have loads of 1-6 spells/day, but a paltry number of 7-9 spells/day.

The following is a (non-exhaustive) list of items that could be adjusted as such:
1) Berator's Radiant Ring, Robe, Scaled Pads
2) Melodic Bolster
3) DM award items
4) Snake Charmer's Amulet
5) Bard Set
6) Storms set (Bard Amulet)
7) Melodic (Belt/Amulet) - Drow castle Theurge drop
8) Girdle of Draughts
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fox
Posts: 251

Re: Bard casting Proposal!

Post#18 » Thu Apr 15, 2021 2:20 pm

kc2345 wrote:Putting up some ideas on how to do this as a checklist:

1) Level 7-9 Spells to be added:
Generally have no issue with fox's suggestions, but would also add "Mass Cure Serious Wounds" at 7 and "Mass Cure Critical Wounds" at 8 to continue the trend of bards getting cure spells from levels 0-6.

Would also suggest adding "Heal" to the list of the bard's known skills as the skill is now used to scale the "Cure" spells that bards get.


I don't think bards should get full healing abilities, then you push them into FS Cleric style too much and they become too powerful, especially vs undead. Low healing ability is more in line or remove altogether imo.


kc2345 wrote:2) Spell Damage Numbers:
2 spells will be broken in terms of damage with the introduction of level 7-9 spells. "Sympathetic Vibrations" has already been mentioned by fox, and the other is "Sound Blast".

"Sound Blast" is currently bugged for bards and is doing (1d8+1d10)/CL instead of 1d10 per CL as per its description.

I do not think moving "Sympathetic Vibrations" up to level 8 is a good approach, as it will nerf current AQ6 bards that do not want to burn additional feats to progress to AQ8. Instead, I propose changing the damage dice from 2d10/CL to (2d4+6)/CL. This gives it identical average damage without metamagic modifiers, but significantly reduces its scaling with Empower/Maximize.

"Sound Blast" can perhaps be set to a flat d12/CL to keep it powerful, but in line with other spells of similar level.


I don't like the idea of catering bards to some idea of they want to stay at a certain level (6) so they are nerfed? Let's be fair and say this changes bards and to say that now someone may want to be only and aq 6 caster and they would be nerfed. You'd have to spend the feats, simple to get that power, name of the game.



kc2345 wrote:3) Feat Support:
AQ7, AQ8, and AQ9 need to be custom added for bards so that they can get access to full autoquicken.


Would this be custom add, or just a revert of the bard style AQ, replaced with standard style for other casters?

kc2345 wrote:4) Itemization
Bard items need re-itemization to accommodate the new 7-9 slots, or we will end up in a situation where bards have loads of 1-6 spells/day, but a paltry number of 7-9 spells/day.

The following is a (non-exhaustive) list of items that could be adjusted as such:
1) Berator's Radiant Ring, Robe, Scaled Pads
2) Melodic Bolster
3) DM award items
4) Snake Charmer's Amulet
5) Bard Set
6) Storms set (Bard Amulet)
7) Melodic (Belt/Amulet) - Drow castle Theurge drop
8) Girdle of Draughts
[/color][/i]

Certainly but not initially of importance.

bsb5652
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Re: Bard casting Proposal!

Post#19 » Sat Apr 17, 2021 6:09 pm

Changes are on BETA shortly and will require the beta patch to test. Spell gain and amount Progression is the same as the previous levels just carried forward. I will not be messing with auto quicken since it is joined to warlock and will require alot more work that I'm not all that into doing at the moment. New spells, such as the ones that samyx noted will be worked on in the coming week and added for testing as well, with possibly some updates.

Expand Bard to 9 casting levels

Level 7
Banishment Caster Level(s): Cleric 6, Wizard / Sorcerer 7
Ethereal Jaunt Caster Level(s): Cleric 7, Wizard / Sorcerer 7
Hiss of Sleep Caster Level(s): Wizard / Sorcerer 7
Mordenkainen's Sword Caster Level(s): Wizard / Sorcerer 7
Summon Creature VII Caster Level(s): Cleric 7, Druid 7, Wizard / Sorcerer 7
True Seeing Caster Level(s): Cleric 5, Druid 7, Wizard / Sorcerer 6, Knowledge 4, Animal 4

Level 8
Prismatic Spray Caster Level(s): Wizard / Sorcerer 7
Solipsism Caster Level(s): Wizard/Sorcerer 7
Iron Body Caster Level(s): Wizard / Sorcerer 8
Mind Blank Caster Level(s): Wizard / Sorcerer 8
Summon Creature VIII Caster Level(s): Cleric 8, Druid 8, Wizard / Sorcerer 8

Level 9
Dominate Monster Caster Level(s): Wizard / Sorcerer 9
Etherealness Caster Level(s): Cleric 9, Wizard / Sorcerer 9
Mass Hold Monster Caster Level(s): Wizard / Sorcerer 9
Mordenkainen's Disjunction Caster Level(s): Wizard / Sorcerer 9
Shadow Simulacrum Caster Level(s): Wizard/Sorcerer 9
Summon Creature IX Caster Level(s): Cleric 9, Druid 9, Wizard / Sorcerer 9
Weird Caster Level(s): Wizard / Sorcerer 9, Evil 9
Brian Bloom

Realms of Trinity Executive Producer & Game Creator
http://www.realmsoftrinity.com

kc2345
Posts: 841

Re: Bard casting Proposal!

Post#20 » Mon Apr 19, 2021 9:04 am

Tested on beta and things seem more or less to work as expected. Nothing appears to be destabilizing the server. I also made the following observations:

1) There should be more spells added from level 7-9. Currently, the selection is far too narrow, meaning a level 40 bard is able to learn almost all the spells. I suggest adding the following:

Level 7:
Greater Shadow Conjuration
Heal
Mass Cure Serious Wounds
Mass Invisibility

Level 8:
Finger of Death
Lion's Roar
Mass Blindness/Deafness
Mass Cure Critical Wounds
Greater Shadow Evocation

Level 9:
Summon Creature IX (currently missing)

2) Summon Creature VIII (8) has a bad strref, and summons a treant instead of the intended Earth Elemental. Perhaps this is the wrong version of the spell? Summon IX is completely missing.

3) Resonating Bolt is far too strong with Empower/Maximize due to its 2d6+2/CL scaling. I'm actually hitting over 1,500 per cast with a max level bard with Lyric Thaumaturge, Sonic Might, and the Curse Song debuff. I would recommend changing it to 2d4+4/CL. This keeps the base damage constant for the non-metamagic spell, but reduces the impact of Empower/Maximize on this spell.

4) Sympathetic Vibrations cannot be Empowered/Maximized. I recommend either reducing the dice-based component and enabling Empower/Maximize, or just leaving it as-is.

5) Quicken/Auto-Quicken do not need to be custom added for bards anymore, as they can hit the base requirements of level 9 spells on their own now. We can just leave it as-is, but now we see 2 instances of AQ1-6 due to qualifying for both the base feat and the custom bard feat.

6) Would also recommend adding the "Heal" skill to the bard's list of known skills.

There are other QOL things that can be added to Lyric Thaumaturge, and level 7-9 slots for bard gear, but these are things to do in future.
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