Proposed buff to AB for none casters

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robintehdestroye
Posts: 150

Proposed buff to AB for none casters

Post#1 » Wed Nov 25, 2020 12:12 am

I think it would be a good idea to add 1.5 ab per ER for melee builds without caster levels to give people a option to raise AB on non-caster melee builds without cheesing bard. This would add 7 AB at ER 5 negating the need to dip 2 bard into every melee class, opening up larger options for build diversity.

I also propose only giving the buff to builds with no caster levels to avoid being exploited with the exclusion of ranger/paladin if level 6 or under and none spell book casters such as blackguard, hexblade and assassin.

apply if:
Bard, FS, Clr, Dru, SS, Wiz, Sorc levels = 0
Pal, Rng level < 6

This would give people a good reason to avoid dipping 2 bard 1 cleric into every build and help open up more possibilities for classes that could use the boost.

Brumm
Posts: 2406

Re: Proposed buff to AB for none casters

Post#2 » Wed Nov 25, 2020 2:30 am

That sounds like quite an artificial rule if we exclude casters.
I see your point but I don't think it is the right way of doing it.

robintehdestroye
Posts: 150

Re: Proposed buff to AB for none casters

Post#3 » Wed Nov 25, 2020 3:32 am

yeah, my main thought was most casters dont need the help as they have spells that increase their AB, was more just a suggestion to give melee builds a way to raise their AB without just cheesing 2 bard into every build. Also figure that since casters get a increase in CL for the ERs it would be a good balance for melee to have a similar buff from the ERs.

Anyways just a suggestion.

Aenain
Posts: 122

Re: Proposed buff to AB for none casters

Post#4 » Wed Nov 25, 2020 6:30 am

Any suggestions on how to do it Brumm? I can tell you on my monk, I started missing mobs with EX off around 30 and had to relevel and take cleric/SF just to get my AB up.

robintehdestroye
Posts: 150

Re: Proposed buff to AB for none casters

Post#5 » Wed Nov 25, 2020 10:31 am

I also had to dip 2 bard on my barbarian just to be able to high end game mobs as well, just barely break 90 at 40 with it as well

Brumm
Posts: 2406

Re: Proposed buff to AB for none casters

Post#6 » Wed Nov 25, 2020 12:46 pm

Aenain wrote:Any suggestions on how to do it Brumm? I can tell you on my monk, I started missing mobs with EX off around 30 and had to relevel and take cleric/SF just to get my AB up.


Well. I can't give you a good way of doing it off the cuff so I just brainstom a bit. From my understanding it sounds like there are basically two issues:

1. Bards / clerics / arcanes get such a strong AB boost that they are superior to any non magical/bard boosted melee build (and mobs are kind of adjusted to that)

2. Even if we introduce feats to adress that, these feats could also be taken by the magical/bard supported builds so the gap wouldn't be smaller just everybody would get more AB (which then might lead to an increase in mob AC in the longrun and therefore to a lot of work without fixing the problem).

Such a problem can be somewhat dealt with with artifical rules like robin suggested. But like I already said multiple times I see the risk here of making different builds more the same. It wouldn't matter if you are an Eldrith Knight, a Cleric, a Barbarian or a Fighter. All builds end up with basically the same AB values.

So my - currently not well thought through - suggestion would be to make magical/bard AB different from real "physical" AB. Let me try to explain what I mean: Currently there is rarely an occasion on ROT where you risk loosing your magical AB (partially) so there is no real difference between magical AB and "phyiscal" AB. The AB you get from a spell is as good as the AB you get for investing heavily into fighter-type classes. Same is true for BAB and divine power. That is a weak spot in my opinion. We could change that by reworking Abjuration spells and make the AI use them. And no: I don't want to debuff all magical AB. But making real AB more reliable than magical AB does make sense in my opinion. Magically supported builds and real melee builds would then become more different and somewhat uncomparable. A magically supported build might be stronger under perfect conditions. But the real fighter would be way more reliable and would dish out damage constantly if things get ugly.

But to be clear: This is not a concept I thought through. Stuff like this can require a lot of adjustments in many different places. But even if it means a lot more work I still think that it is the right way of doing it.

Edit: Wouldn't it be wonderful if "real" fighters wouldn't have to spend several rounds to buff themselves with different clickies, rods and shit? No more eye cancer? I know I tend to start dreaming if you ask me a simple question :D.

Aenain
Posts: 122

Re: Proposed buff to AB for none casters

Post#7 » Wed Nov 25, 2020 1:07 pm

This is the type of response I was hoping to see. A solution to a problem, even if it might be something that isn't implemented for a long time, if at all. Frankly, the less clickies and stuff "required" for a melee spec build is good IMO.

kc2345
Posts: 831

Re: Proposed buff to AB for none casters

Post#8 » Wed Nov 25, 2020 7:08 pm

We aren't actually seeing heavy Cleric/FS/Bard builds dominating the server at the expense of the more traditional melee builds though.

While they have superior AB in a solo setting, caster melee's AB advantage quickly vanishes in a group as a large chunk of their AB boosts are shared with the others in the party.

With shared AB boosts, non-caster melees basically equalize the caster melees in terms of AB, but offer significantly better damage output owing to access to better combat abilities (e.g. Finishing Stroke) and higher damage (8d12) sets.

I think this dynamic is by itself fine.

The problem is that this "sharable" AB is too huge. It's up to +14 AB for a Bard (+12 Inspire, +2 Haste - and yes, not counting +13 Dread Pirates) and +9 for a Cleric/FS type (+4 Bless, +2 Recitation, and +1 from Aid, Prayer, Lion's Roar).

If enemy AC were lowered proportionally along with "sharable" AB boosts, the AB gap between solo caster melees and non-caster melees would close. The overall solo combat performance of the caster melees and the relative power of a fully buffed party would remain roughly the same as they are now, but solo non-caster melees see a boost. Such a change would also free up "magic AB" from the AB cap.

Of course, the XP awarded needs upward adjustment if mob AC is universally reduced.

tl;dr - What about deflating monster AC and the AB from shared buffs instead of the awarding of AB to non-casters?
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fox
Posts: 233

Re: Proposed buff to AB for none casters

Post#9 » Wed Nov 25, 2020 7:28 pm

I think the ask for AB on these pure builds is mitigated already by the lowering of MOB AC on the EX.
And yes in reality the difference between say KC and myself is he builds for maximum damage at all costs, and people who follow that way of building are hitting the wall of damn I deal damage but miss a lot.
I on the other hand I build for max AB, and let the more hits per round deal an equal amount of damage as having max damage dealer. It's a different style, for sure but extremely viable, and for those who have played with me, I think you may be getting it.
So I just ask that some of you realize that this game should not be cook-cutter all sizes fit, work the same, etc.
Variety works great for me.

kc2345
Posts: 831

Re: Proposed buff to AB for none casters

Post#10 » Wed Nov 25, 2020 7:38 pm

A more specific example of how to do this:

The AB awarded by a 2 Bard dip is approximately +7.

We lower mob AC by 7, and remove 4 magic AB from bards and 3 magic AB from FS/Clerics/Paladins.

For FS/Clerics/Paladins, "Bless" could be locked at +1 AB instead of scaling to +4. This lowers their magic AB by 3.

For Bards, Leadership, Song of the Heart now provide +3 damage but no AB to Inspire Courage. Epic Inspiration awards +6 damage but no AB. Inspire Courage now becomes +8 AB, +20 damage at 38 Bardsong levels instead of +12 AB, +12 damage.

2 bard dippers now get a +2 AB, +14 damage Inspire Courage instead of a +6/+6.
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