Potential idea to expand the Epic Prowess feat line?

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Fan
Posts: 682

Re: Potential idea to expand the Epic Prowess feat line?

Post#11 » Wed Nov 25, 2020 4:25 pm

Aenain wrote:
Fan wrote:My idea is to make these feats general to all classes. Fighters may benefit more because it has more feats than others. There are two reasons for it.

1. It is PnP compatible. Epic Prowess can be taken multiple times in PnP.

2. It solves the Bard dip problem partially. The bard dip problem exists because people want a way to buy AB via feats. This at least partially addresses it.


I don't feel it does address the bard dip issue. Why would I spend 10 feats, when I could take 2 and 2 class levels and almost match it?


2 Bard + Battle dancer + Epic Inspire give 5 AB. Afterwards, the benefit of doing Bard dipping diminishes.

So with more epic prowess feats, it is essentially 2 level + 1 class slot + one skill investment for 3 AB. It might be beneficial but not a must. For some builds, maybe 2 level + 1 class slot worth more than 3AB.

addict-ant
Posts: 729

Re: Potential idea to expand the Epic Prowess feat line?

Post#12 » Wed Nov 25, 2020 5:02 pm

@Fan - your ideas on epic prowess are perfectly legit imo.

On the topic of Bard cheese - i really feel this is a non-issue: they're only good for solo play; the moment a real bard enters the party all those levels and feats spent are for nought.

@Fox - really like the ideas (and love the presentation btw). If Fan, or any dev, codes them that way, i'd be entirely content. I am however something of a proponent for keeping the fighter purist requirement.
OR being really careful with what qualifies as 'Fighter type classes'. For example I'm unsure of the wisdom of letting Swashbuckler getting in on those goodies - they seem in a good place atm. I'm thinking Rangers too for that matter.
What are your thoughts?
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fox
Posts: 235

Re: Potential idea to expand the Epic Prowess feat line?

Post#13 » Wed Nov 25, 2020 5:09 pm

@Ant

Fighter type classes that qualify for the set bonus also; Blackguard, Weapon Master, Duelist, Divine Champion, Warrior of Darkness, Anointed Knight, Dwarven Defender, Elemental Warrior, Arcane Archer, Elemental Archer

About taking away the 21 fighter purist levels, because 18 is the magic number for fighters not 21, 18 purist allows for adding full level PRCS etc that make for better builds, eg BG AA

addict-ant
Posts: 729

Re: Potential idea to expand the Epic Prowess feat line?

Post#14 » Wed Nov 25, 2020 5:37 pm

I thought fighter purist was 18 lvls but having just looked it up, content library states 19.

Either which way, that list seems pretty decent. Unless someone can foresee an issue we're missing?
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Aenain
Posts: 122

Re: Potential idea to expand the Epic Prowess feat line?

Post#15 » Wed Nov 25, 2020 5:47 pm

Fan wrote:
Aenain wrote:
Fan wrote:My idea is to make these feats general to all classes. Fighters may benefit more because it has more feats than others. There are two reasons for it.

1. It is PnP compatible. Epic Prowess can be taken multiple times in PnP.

2. It solves the Bard dip problem partially. The bard dip problem exists because people want a way to buy AB via feats. This at least partially addresses it.


I don't feel it does address the bard dip issue. Why would I spend 10 feats, when I could take 2 and 2 class levels and almost match it?


2 Bard + Battle dancer + Epic Inspire give 5 AB. Afterwards, the benefit of doing Bard dipping diminishes.

So with more epic prowess feats, it is essentially 2 level + 1 class slot + one skill investment for 3 AB. It might be beneficial but not a must. For some builds, maybe 2 level + 1 class slot worth more than 3AB.


I was talking about the bard song cheesing.

A link describing what I mean: viewtopic.php?f=6&t=5152&p=38514&hilit=bard+song#p38514

Bolt Thrower
Posts: 13

Re: Potential idea to expand the Epic Prowess feat line?

Post#16 » Wed Nov 25, 2020 8:12 pm

As Monk disqualifies for Armor Skin 2+, maybe Bard song could disqualify Epic Prowess 2+?

Fan
Posts: 682

Re: Potential idea to expand the Epic Prowess feat line?

Post#17 » Wed Nov 25, 2020 9:18 pm

Bolt Thrower wrote:As Monk disqualifies for Armor Skin 2+, maybe Bard song could disqualify Epic Prowess 2+?


It is a possible option, however I doubt bard will purchase the feats much as it is pretty feat starved.

Aenain
Posts: 122

Re: Potential idea to expand the Epic Prowess feat line?

Post#18 » Wed Nov 25, 2020 9:36 pm

Fan wrote:
Bolt Thrower wrote:As Monk disqualifies for Armor Skin 2+, maybe Bard song could disqualify Epic Prowess 2+?


It is a possible option, however I doubt bard will purchase the feats much as it is pretty feat starved.


His point is a fighter could dip 2 bard for 8AB, then also take the Epic Prowess line too.

That was my point about bard. Why would you spend 10 feats for +10 when you could dip 2 bard for +8 and only spend 2 feats?

kc2345
Posts: 832

Re: Potential idea to expand the Epic Prowess feat line?

Post#19 » Wed Nov 25, 2020 10:03 pm

The 2 bard dip costs 4 feats (in addition to the opportunity cost of another class dip like Paladin or 2 more Ftr levels) in order to get the full +7 (not +8 as the first bard level awards no BAB). Epic Inspiration also requires 25 real Cha and 30 skill points in Perform.

Battledancer
Leadership
Song of the Heart
Epic Inspiration

So if you benchmark the bard dip against 2 more Ftr levels, the character pays 5 feats (and 30-50 skillpoints) for +7 AB. It's not 2 levels and 2 feats for +8 AB by any measure.

My main concern with this change is that it shifts the pendulum too far in the direction of valuing bonus feats, and builds like the 36 Ftr level one I posted earlier become the new standard.
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DarthThomas48
Posts: 22

Re: Potential idea to expand the Epic Prowess feat line?

Post#20 » Thu Nov 26, 2020 12:12 am

KC what was that wiz/ek/bg build you said on discord that was the best melee?

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