Proposed Change to Scroll of Combat

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Fan
Posts: 648

Proposed Change to Scroll of Combat

Post#1 » Sun Nov 22, 2020 9:12 pm

I know it is always hard to change items that everyone is using, but I would like to drop a note that why I feel it is really important to change this particular item. I am open to suggestions and I want keep this discussion rationale and productive.

Scroll of Combat is an ``inventory'' item that gives up to +3 magical AB. It is problematic because it is accessible to everyone and it is effectively lowering the magical AB cap by 3. Note that we cannot change AB cap further because the engine has issues of handling AB/AC values over 110/130. We are already approaching that limit.

I currently have two potential plans to replace the +AB property:

1. A random useful combat feats such as Weapon Finess/ Monkey Grip/ Epic Powess/ Two Weapon Defense

2. Universal Save Throws +1/+2/+3

Of course, comments are welcome. Your thoughts? :D

fox
Posts: 233

Re: Proposed Change to Scroll of Combat

Post#2 » Sun Nov 22, 2020 10:37 pm

You dev's have been saying we are dangerously close to these magic AB caps since the first day I came to this server. That's close to ten years now.
Nothing has broke yet.
We are no closer to these caps then we were ten years ago.
Think you should leave this one alone.
Better yet show me a formula, or the build that exceeds 110 AB, it's likely worthless and no=body would bother.
I already know a monk build can exceed 130 AB, and that only hurts the toon itself, there is no engine explosion or anything like that.
But I have never been able to exceed 108 AB. And that being with a fairly worthless FS/Bard build, that could hit but do little damage.

Fan
Posts: 648

Re: Proposed Change to Scroll of Combat

Post#3 » Mon Nov 23, 2020 12:49 am

With all respects, I realize this is an issue because at least two people have asked me whether it is possible to further lift the AB cap because they have something seriously would hit that. Plus there will be power creeping in future anyway.

I just feel adjusting a universal boring +AB item to something more customizable is at least a good start. Plus I already lowered every mob by 2 AC per EX level. It is more than enough to offset this change.

fox
Posts: 233

Re: Proposed Change to Scroll of Combat

Post#4 » Mon Nov 23, 2020 12:46 pm

Show me the builds that could exceed 108 AB. They don't exist because of the magic AB cap, which is 20, and that's a wrap man!
Moves like this do not hurt the "RICH" , they hurt guys who want to build something besides your baseline min/max build style of play.
FOR INSTANCE, any purist melee build without dips to bard or divine class, will not have enough AB to make a difference in their DPS. That 1-3 AB can be the game changing element that makes your build able to hit that minimum to hit said MOB.

adam
Posts: 473

Re: Proposed Change to Scroll of Combat

Post#5 » Mon Nov 23, 2020 1:31 pm

40 bab
50 magic
20 stat
1 epic prowess
1 weapon focus
3 storm lord bonus
1 size
1 racial
————————————
117 ab


I think a bard/cleric/sl could do this.

fox
Posts: 233

Re: Proposed Change to Scroll of Combat

Post#6 » Mon Nov 23, 2020 2:07 pm

But you can't. There is no way to achieve magic +50.

Fan
Posts: 648

Re: Proposed Change to Scroll of Combat

Post#7 » Mon Nov 23, 2020 2:19 pm

Any cleric uses intuitive attack may hit the cap.

+4 Bless
+5 Divine Favor
+4 GH
+15 Weapon
+1 Haste (or +3 if take Time/Travel Domain)
+up to 20 Intuitive Attack
+3 Scroll of Combat

= up to 54

Since Wisdom is the primary casting attribute for Cleric. This is a very legitimate build.

There are few other actual useful build may hit the CAP as well. Bard/Cleric/CL or pure Bard with snowflake.

adam
Posts: 473

Re: Proposed Change to Scroll of Combat

Post#8 » Mon Nov 23, 2020 2:53 pm

fox wrote:But you can't. There is no way to achieve magic +50.


here are 55 magic points, all practical within one build. I'm probably missing something, but 50 is very easy to hit, even without intuitive attack.

weapon AB 15
divine favor 5
insp. Curage 6
bless 4
g. hero 4
recitation 3
Dm combat scroll 3
weapon mastery 2
battle dancer 2
war cry 2
blessed aim 2
lion's roar 1
prayer 1
exp. Tactician 1
aid 1
haste 1
reduce person 1
battletide 1
toal: 55

fox
Posts: 233

Re: Proposed Change to Scroll of Combat

Post#9 » Mon Nov 23, 2020 3:16 pm

Ok, change the scroll of combat, I forgot intuitive attack, but that's a talk for another day.
And the only way to achieve what you are talking about is a theurge build, i still think the AB caps in place on magic, changes your equation, but paper theory crafting is fine.
Like I said this only hurts builds who need a little AB and doesn't set back any builds that already have plenty.

I tested this and 112 w/o bard levels, so I would assume Bard could be to +13 somehow, but again I cannot get this to compute the way you think, I had theurge build and tried to hit the limits and it just doesn't. I think some of these bonus cancel the others out (bard/divine).

addict-ant
Posts: 728

Re: Proposed Change to Scroll of Combat

Post#10 » Mon Nov 23, 2020 4:00 pm

I agree with Fox, i think there's little need to change them: afaik there are very few builds that hit the cap - and if there are more than I think, then we should be looking at a wider ranging solution. The 1-3 from the scroll is not what's breaking the bank here.
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