Evard's Black Tentacles change proposal

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Aenain
Posts: 31

Evard's Black Tentacles change proposal

Post#1 » Thu May 28, 2020 1:23 pm

KC tested the spell against thumper, and at AC 14 it ticks reliably. At AC 85 it hardly hits.

Due to this I did some testing on Redhat (40RW with conj spec) and found my DC was only 60 (normally I push DC 67 for conj spells) for some reason.

I dug into the base spell code for the spell as ships with NWN2 and saw the hit code was: nRoll = 5 + d20()

What this means is at AC25 and above you have a 5% chance for a tentacle to hit.

KC proposed this formula: I think an AB of 1.35x DC would be appropriate. For a CL 50 caster with a base 61 DC, this works out to +82 to hit Vs a target's full AC.

I propose we use 1.2xDC + d20 as the formula for this spell. This gives it the chance to roll between 74-94 for to hit rolls at DC61, always missing on a 1 and always hitting on a 20 for the D20 roll.

Thoughts?

Edit: I also intended this to apply to the warlock version. I just forgot to add that originally.

Samyx
Posts: 723

Re: Evard's Black Tentacles change proposal

Post#2 » Thu May 28, 2020 2:05 pm

Hi
Why not 1d20+1,5 DC so lesser casters can still have some use for this spell ?
Samyx

Aenain
Posts: 31

Re: Evard's Black Tentacles change proposal

Post#3 » Thu May 28, 2020 4:10 pm

The spell will scale well at 1.2+d20. 1.5 would make the upper end rolls always hit, and the spell isn't supposed to always hit.

at DC 5, it will get an attack roll of 6+d20, which means without a 20 you can still hit AC 25. That is the same as the cap on how the spell was originally written, and at DC6 you surpass what was originally in the spell.

At DC*1.5 you would be getting 91+d20 attack roll at DC 61 which is too much.

fox
Posts: 143

Re: Evard's Black Tentacles change proposal

Post#4 » Thu May 28, 2020 7:05 pm

Any amount of making it better I think is good. Is a high level spell, should hit like one.

kc2345
Posts: 745

Re: Evard's Black Tentacles change proposal

Post#5 » Thu May 28, 2020 7:40 pm

As long as the AB gets to the 80+ range, it should be able to hit anything reliably as most event server mobs cap out in the mid 70s-80s AC.

As DC scales a lot slower than AB and mob ACs, lower level casters should also be able to hit with this spell as long as it is properly calibrated to hit at the upper end.

Base DC is 60 for a CL 50 caster with Prodigy, Domineering, 50 in the appropriate stat, and no spell focus.

1.2x of that is 1d20 + 72, which is a tad low in my opinion.

1.35x of that is 1d20 + 81, which is fairly reliable.

1.5x of that is 1d20 + 90, which is also fairly reasonable.

I would say that - if we do want it to scale with DC - any number between 1.35x to 1.5x of DC would be fine, especially given that the damage at (1d6+1)/2 CL isn't exactly extreme.

Alternatively, it could be just equal DC, but be an attack vs Touch AC rather than full AC.

Similar coding/scaling could also be used for the Warlock's Chilling Tentacles invocation.
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Aenain
Posts: 31

Re: Evard's Black Tentacles change proposal

Post#6 » Fri May 29, 2020 12:47 am

72 +d20 will net a possible roll of 92 though, and a minimum roll of 73. Average will be around 82 on the attack roll, which is in the reasonable range.

1.35 would cap at a roll of 101 with an average of 91, and 1.5 caps at a roll of 110 with an average of 100. Those seem way too high on average for me.

Also remember, this is just basic caster rolls. Inexo and specialty casters will be higher than what we listed.

Samyx
Posts: 723

Re: Evard's Black Tentacles change proposal

Post#7 » Fri May 29, 2020 2:02 am

As i have written, not everybody will be CL50 and DC61+ , this spell must be useful for lesser casters.
As I have written numerous times, it is absurd to build spells based on top elite builds only

Aenain
Posts: 31

Re: Evard's Black Tentacles change proposal

Post#8 » Fri May 29, 2020 12:22 pm

Samy,

the formula I proposed wasn't for top builds only. Let me list the to hit rolls for different caster levels:

CL 10 = 12+1d20 (AC 31 without rolling a 20)
CL 20 = 24+1d20 (AC 43 without rolling a 20)
CL 30 = 36+1d20 (AC 55 without rolling a 20)
CL 40 = 48+1d20 (AC 67 without rolling a 20)

And keep in mind, rolling a 20 always hits and rolling a 1 always misses.

This is a low damage AOE, but it also applies a paralyze on a failed fort save. The save does not affect the blunt damage component of the spell.

Samyx
Posts: 723

Re: Evard's Black Tentacles change proposal

Post#9 » Fri May 29, 2020 1:53 pm

I refuse to do maths, but I emphasize that this spell must useful for everyone, not only ultra high casters. Otherwise it will fall into useless spells like so many others.
Make it useful for everyone, not only for fiend/prodigy/rw ultra optimized things.

kc2345
Posts: 745

Re: Evard's Black Tentacles change proposal

Post#10 » Fri May 29, 2020 8:21 pm

How the spell actually functions is that it does 1-4 attack rolls. If any of the rolls hits, the spell does it's full damage, but does not hit more than once per round. So it's not just a simple single roll to hit.

Aenian's 1.2x multiplier would give an approximately 50% chance for a reasonably optimized (DC61, AB 73) caster to hit a top end mob (AC 83 or so) per roll.

A true RW top end min-maxed build is looking at a base DC of 67, AB 80 with those parameters.

If we maximize the spell so it does 4 rolls, a 50% chance to hit per roll yields a chance to hit per round of 93.75%.

I think this is unnecessarily complicated, as it makes empowering/maximizing the tentacles do double duty by both increasing the damage of the spell and the potential number of rolls.

Just make it do 1 roll with a higher AB (DC x 1.35-1.5) to determine hit chance and call it a day.

Also, it seems the damage dice/descriptions for the spell are inconsistent. At CL 50, it is ticking for 240/round on Thumper with Maximize when it should be 210/round based on the spell description. (Seems to be 1d6+2 implemented when description states 1d6+1)
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