Spiders & Pubs

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Samyx
Posts: 712

Re: Spiders & Pubs

Post#11 » Wed Mar 25, 2020 8:54 am

Brumm wrote:Hello everybody,

Aenain is right about the XP for spiders probably changing after the code rollout. In trade for that different areas might become new grinding hotspots so it might make sense to wait for the rollout and for whatever happens then.

Furthermore I am not very keen on giving players early access to higher journal tied areas because this has the potential to bug your journal quite heavily. We would have to make a lot of changes to make sure that nothing bad can happen and I doubt that this is well invested developer time. Not to mention that it wouldn't make much sense if you look at the story as a whole.

My suggestion would be a little different: We could add one or two new areas where players can grind endlessly. One location for that could be the large field in front of the eastern gate of Trinity. There is enough space to fit a cemetary in where we could spawn endless undead. A crypt could then lead to an area where you get tougher spawns. Would that work for you guys?

Greetings
Brumm


You get the idea. Spiders are only the easiest way so far. I wonder how it would be easier to craete a new area from scratch than removing the lloth key from spiders, but I'm game to try anything that will keep the spirit and effectiveness of the four points indicated in my first post :

- XP grinding
- Item grinding
- A place where many players gather and talk about builds, spells, tweaks, tricks
- A major trading place

You prefer a two level place ? one for mids and one for tougher 27+chars ? ok !!! do you have already ideas or woudl you let player's creativity propose something ?

kc2345
Posts: 718

Re: Spiders & Pubs

Post#12 » Wed Mar 25, 2020 9:25 am

I see the value of a static zone where players can meet, train and chat all at the same time, but I have concerns that making such an area too rewarding would eclipse any further development, as players would then be better off simply sitting around and farming that one zone all day. We already see this with spiders, as more veteran players typically only run through the storyline once, then farm the spiders all day unless looking for a specific drop.

Perhaps there could be a new room in the Port of Call tavern featuring a famous gnome illusionist (Jan Jansen?) who will summon customized mobs for players to train on?

Players could set the following options:
1) CR of spawned illusions (10-40)
2) Size of spawn (1 at a time to 10 at a time)
3) Frequency of spawn (one off to one set per 20s)

So for example, players could talk to him to spawn 8 CR 35 mob illusions every 20s.

The room would also have an emergency kill switch to clear all illusions, and all of them despawn should no player be present.

As the mobs are illusions and not "real" mobs, they would award full XP (the combat training is real), but minimal to no GP and EX/Set Item rewards.
Image

Aenain
Posts: 17

Re: Spiders & Pubs

Post#13 » Wed Mar 25, 2020 10:32 am

kc2345 wrote:As the mobs are illusions and not "real" mobs, they would award full XP (the combat training is real), but minimal to no GP and EX/Set Item rewards.


I like this idea better. It would also give newbies a way to grind if they want a level or 2 without any rewards beyond powering up.

Tom D
Posts: 34

Re: Spiders & Pubs

Post#14 » Wed Mar 25, 2020 11:29 am

kc2345 wrote:I see the value of a static zone where players can meet, train and chat all at the same time, but I have concerns that making such an area too rewarding would eclipse any further development, as players would then be better off simply sitting around and farming that one zone all day. We already see this with spiders, as more veteran players typically only run through the storyline once, then farm the spiders all day unless looking for a specific drop.


A few thoughts...

1) I have found that I alternate story, spiders and event server. They all have value, rewards, etc. Story is good with players that are consistently on when you are on. Spiders are good for ERs when people are on for varying times. Event server is good for solo play with your 40's or for high level group xp grinding.

2) Spiders does cease being rewarding around level 31 or so. XP drops way down (as it should).

3) If someone does want to just do spiders all day every day because it's fun for them, so what? If it's not fun for me or you, that's ok - but we shouldn't lessen a place just because we don't share that playstyle. I feel sometimes that we can all fall into the trap of "they shouldn't play that way". As someone wise always says - you can't win ROT. :) It's all for fun.

EDIT: I guess not everything goes though - we do need some limts - lol. :)

kc2345
Posts: 718

Re: Spiders & Pubs

Post#15 » Wed Mar 25, 2020 11:52 am

To be fair, only 2/4 parts proposed by Samyx are actually directly achievable by Devs, specifically

- XP grinding
- Item grinding

The other 2 will follow naturally should rewards/effort be worthwhile, and if groups form to do the content.

- A place where many players gather and talk about builds, spells, tweaks, tricks
- A major trading place

I am quite comfortable with making XP grinding something more convenient. Hence, I was thinking of expanding the training to a new zone that allows for continuous custom spawning all the way to CR40 so players of all levels (not just those pushing ERs) can both farm levels and experiment with builds/encounters without having to run all the way to spiders. Hanging out in an actual pub is a lot better than spending all day in a dusty crypt!

However, my suggestion to lower or eliminate the special EX/set item drop rate is to prevent it becoming the de-facto spot for everything. Spawning 10 easily skilled mobs every 20 seconds basically trumps anything any other zone can offer for example, rewards need to be tuned down/eliminated to keep total reward (XP+GP+Items) per unit time somewhat consistent.

Spiders themselves should not be affected in any way, as this zone can be made as a new hub without touching the spider crypt. It appears decoupling the zone from quest journals is a non-trivial dev task, and there are risks of journal corruption if it were simply directly linked to TTC.

For the port to Lith, I am thinking of allowing access for all players, even fresh ones, as Lith content is not journal tied anyway, and the boat from Lith to Reeshov is broken - so no risk of journal corruption.
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fox
Posts: 131

Re: Spiders & Pubs

Post#16 » Wed Mar 25, 2020 3:35 pm

I think we should leave spiders alone.
There is another semi-grind spot before spiders. it's the first crypts, where they respawn on rest.

Careful about trying to force everyone to play one way, we all like different things. But spiders should be left alone.

MortisCorpus
Posts: 1556

Re: Spiders & Pubs

Post#17 » Wed Mar 25, 2020 4:06 pm

It’s not that anyone is going to ‘mess’ with spiders. It’s more of a global realignment which will encompass and change their award. Also, with the proposed CR changes, the exp awarded would be based on total exp. this means that players who hold at lvl 27 would no longer get reward for playing at a lesser level. Hence, It will award on a characters total obtained, eliminating the bonuses from holding off on taking levels.
Administrator, Dungeon Master

Brumm
Posts: 2315

Re: Spiders & Pubs

Post#18 » Wed Mar 25, 2020 5:35 pm

Well, let's be honest about things. The idea of "leaving spiders alone" is fine and I understand that but it is not gonna happen if we ever introduce a fair CR scaling. It never was and it is not the purpose of the new CR scaling to make spiders crypt less valueable but as far as I can tell it is the neccessary result of such a change. The simple reason is that the current top notch grinding spots - like spiders - are much likely determinde by nothing less than XP per minute. That is totally reasonable and I am fine with that. But that also means that the top grinding spot is very likely populated with creatures which CR is set to a way higher level than their actual power level justifies because otherwise they wouldn't have the best XP per minute ratio. The new CR forumla results seem to prove that by the way. So if we really want to roll out a fair CR calculation code it will neccesarily mean that grinding spots shift. You can dislike that and we can dump the idea entirely because of player rioting against it. But you can't have the cake and eat it too. So either fair CR or continuity in grinding spots. Your choice.

Aenain
Posts: 17

Re: Spiders & Pubs

Post#19 » Wed Mar 25, 2020 9:30 pm

My vote is for the fair CR exp calculations. I think we need to tweak the exp formula some before we go live, but I think it will help the server overall. Also, any who may be against it please remember that drop rates for runes, sets, crook, etc will be fixed based on this code rewrite.

I also posted low level findings in discord under the Beta Testing channel.

Samyx
Posts: 712

Re: Spiders & Pubs

Post#20 » Thu Mar 26, 2020 2:59 am

Brumm wrote:Well, let's be honest about things. The idea of "leaving spiders alone" is fine and I understand that but it is not gonna happen if we ever introduce a fair CR scaling. It never was and it is not the purpose of the new CR scaling to make spiders crypt less valueable but as far as I can tell it is the neccessary result of such a change. The simple reason is that the current top notch grinding spots - like spiders - are much likely determinde by nothing less than XP per minute. That is totally reasonable and I am fine with that. But that also means that the top grinding spot is very likely populated with creatures which CR is set to a way higher level than their actual power level justifies because otherwise they wouldn't have the best XP per minute ratio. The new CR forumla results seem to prove that by the way. So if we really want to roll out a fair CR calculation code it will neccesarily mean that grinding spots shift. You can dislike that and we can dump the idea entirely because of player rioting against it. But you can't have the cake and eat it too. So either fair CR or continuity in grinding spots. Your choice.


I'll be honest too. A change that brings nothing more to the majority of players is not worthy. I am not talking about the super elite powerplayers, who are not concerned by whatever happens and can sustain any change. I am concerned about the majority of players who enjoy meeting the others and help them grind their way to heaven, talk with people, trade things, all in one place, then shift elsewhere when the place is no more appropriate for their toons.

I remind you all an example few years ago : I was complaining that the asyrian crypt was a bit boring as a grinding place, wanted more. the result was that this place had its mob number harlved, destroying the interest to go there. What was the goal of this change beyond alienating players ? I still wonder.

So no, Brumm. I agree to the XP fair thing for the long term wellness of the whole server, but I can't agree the grinding/meeting/trading places to be destroyed in the process. Replaced by something with the same spirit "all in the same place" ? ok for me, as you proposed the 2 level cemetaries, why not, that sounds worthy for me if put in place in a reasonable timeframe.

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