Nerfing Discussions

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Brumm
Posts: 2279

Re: Nerfing Discussions

Post#21 » Thu Jan 02, 2020 2:02 pm

Thanks for your really helpful report, Zulwarn. I totally agree with you that we need a better documentation even if I am still not sure how to pull that off. Without the help of the playerbase this will be impossible for sure. Maybe we should revive the ROT-Wiki.

Regarding the introduction of Mana:
This is a long story but in short one can say that it was done to prevent an exploit with the Teleport spell. Spamming Teleport makes a character basically invincible because the AI can't target you while you are porting. This allowed players to fill the area with duration AoE spells and then port around until everybody is dead. A cooldown on Teleport would have fixed that of course but with the drawback of not being able to cast several Teleports in a row at all anymore. This would make a dynamic caster playstyle - which is not that easy to manage but fun if you can - impossible. The Mana System was a way to fix the exploit without making the more dynamic playstyle impossible. Adding the Mana to Hellball was just done so that people can experiment with the new system and decide if they like it or not.

How does the Mana system currently work:
Your Mana is equal to your Spellcraft Skill + 10 and regenerates by 1% of your Max Mana per round. All spells that are tied to Mana (currently Telelport and Hellball) can be cast as long as you have the required amount of Mana left. So there is no use/day limitation anymore. As long as you have enough Mana you can cast it.

How will the Mana system look in future:
That depends on the players. So far I get the feeling that people don't like how much the current numbers favor casters so that we maybe change the numbers a bit. Maybe that you get 50 Mana + Spellcraft/2. Also the Mana cost on the spells is still up for discussion. And even a removal of the Mana System is up for discussion if people really don't like it. If we decide to keep it we will also introduce new itemproperties with bonus to Mana and/or bonus to the Mana regeneration.

Regarding the rogue set:
It is currently not planned to change it.

Greetings
Brumm

Samyx
Posts: 697

Re: Nerfing Discussions

Post#22 » Thu Jan 02, 2020 3:00 pm

I'm not really fond of mana system, due to the precise fact that is it not really D&D, but if this happens then I'm very much FOR CAsters having a bonus on it, so 10+spellcraft is nice, AND a heavy cost on teleport, I proposed 10 per use, or even more

addict-ant
Posts: 700

Re: Nerfing Discussions

Post#23 » Thu Jan 02, 2020 3:17 pm

@Zulwarn - on the mana front i tend to agree with you: it's a real departure from D&D rules and not one i'm keen on. I'd prefer a cooldown also - that way teleporting mobs won't be able to exploit the invulnerability it gives against players and people won't feel forced to rebuild their toons. However, there are broader issues at work - such as the ever growing pile of wish shards player side with little to spend them on, which I think Brian and Brumm are keen to work on. Or, as i mentioned previously the growing trend for those with TP to range far ahead in events to those without TP; to name but two.

Please know: no-one is suggesting we nerf anything into the ground or to rearrange the current 'power hierarchy' of builds. It's far more a discussion/attempt to reduce what many people feel, are too large a gap, between the 'haves' and the 'have-nots'; which are almost exclusively due to the Law of Unintended Consequences and our limited resource pool.

Which leads me to the subject of improved documentation - I'm know we'd all love to have this and an awful lot of knowledge is passed from veterans to new players via word of mouth... but (at least for the moment) i'm afraid there are simply not enough of us to do it :cry:
To clarify current active staff members, we have:
1 server admin who also makes new areas (Brian)
1 developer and bug fixer (Brumm)
2 DM's running weekly events (me and Countyboar)

I cannot commit more than the 6-8 hours per week i currently am and i'm sure the others are in the same boat. If anyone wants to volunteer their time - it would be very welcome.

I see as i write this, Brumm and Samyx have posted - i hope i'm not going over the same ground they have. Apologies if i have.
Image

Zulwarn
Posts: 7

Re: Nerfing Discussions

Post#24 » Thu Jan 02, 2020 6:28 pm

even if I am still not sure how to pull that off. Without the help of the playerbase this will be impossible for sure. Maybe we should revive the ROT-Wiki.


Hey, thanks for taking the time to read and reply. As far as documentation goes, here is something that could start to help the problem: introduce clearly labeled major "versions" of RoT. As in, have clear version numbers that people can refer to in i.e. a build or a wiki, so if you see that information later, you can compare it to the current game version and at least know that you are looking at information that is clearly out of date. If you allow me another comparision: again kinda like Path of Exile does it. You don't follow a build guide that was written for an older version of the game there, because everyone has a clear idea of when and how major changes are introduced, by their numbering system. Why not introduce something like that? Doesn't has to be as regular as they do it, just a post on the homepage with the changes in each major version. To give you just an example:

:arrow:
Introducing RoT v3.14
What is new:
- Added a mana system that works like this....
Changed spells in this release:
- Made Sunburst unable to kill vampires when they save.
- ....
Changed items:
- Added 2d6 whatever to something....
- ....
:arrow:

And then in a build guide, post talking about spells, etc. you reference the version ("Rogue Build for RoT 3.14"). It also helps to get a complete picture of changes - if you i.e. see that "rogues now get full BaB progression" in the same post that also has "rogue set now gives only [n] AB instead of [m] before" you kinda can infer the intention a lot better then "rogue set will... probably, maybe, if people don't complain to much be nerfed.. or not... some time in the future".

This is a long story but in short one can say that it was done to prevent an exploit with the Teleport spell. Spamming Teleport makes a character basically invincible because the AI can't target you while you are porting.


Thank you! That actually adds some context.

The Mana System was a way to fix the exploit without making the more dynamic playstyle impossible.


Why not just make it charge-based and regenerate the charges over time? They were actually some PrCs in 3.5 that did that with TU charges iirc. Do you want to force non-casters to invest into spellcraft (in addition to *cough* quite some rare runes, highest I ever found was an "O" one... *cough*...) as a balancing measure?

trend for those with TP to range far ahead in events to those without TP; to name but two.

Or, as i mentioned previously the growing trend for those with TP to range far ahead in events to those without TP; to name but two.


And that might be an unpopular opinion, but granting access to teleport to every class, if you are rich enough, is exactly creating the gap between "have" and "have not". If we assume teleport to be a class feature for casters, then you are really saying "if you got enough runes, you can have that class feature too". Now granted, it is a lot of quality of life and loosing that without a replacement would suck... but hear me out: You got a shiny new plugin that, among other things, can increase move speed caps. Why not differentiate classes better by giving them different movement abilities, instead of just plain copy and paste for every class? For example:

- Casters retain the ability to teleport, as per now, but either charge or cooldown-based, so it's not teleport spam that breaks the engine.
- Rogues (as in the general sneaky types, thugs, assassins, etc. included) gain the ability to move faster in stealth than in normal movement (there is existing feats that increase the speed in stealth, just increase that to >100% and you are done, should be quite easy). If you want an easy way to scale that: attach it to sneak dice, say 3-5% per dice (exact values to your taste ofc) or something like that. There are script functions to count sneak dice already, so easy to code, easy to understand for players.
- Barbarians get progessive movespeed increases while raging (tie it to the feats that improve the rage in some other way already for example). A rageing barbarian charging in weapons drawn in a stampede seems far more class fantasy appropriate to me, then a raging barbarian *casting teleport*... I mean.. really?
- Fighters (or "fighter-like types", i.e. include ninjas here for example) get a short cooldown charge ability, that charges towards an enemy and has a fortitude-based short stun for example, it's not teleport but short cooldown and can be used tactically. It differs in that it does not scale the movespeed - but the fortitude save, so it focuses more on the "crowd control" side. If you wanna go all fancy, you could add feats that add a bit of aoe to it (stun multiple targets, making where to charge even more important), or add a knockdown or silence to the stun, things like this. Make this a move that rewards smart targeting.
- Ranged toons could (relatively rarely) find "teleporting" arrows/bolts/bullets/whatever-you-can-throws that teleport the user to the target, with a CD of say 3 rounds, to avoid multiple teleports per round ofc. The unique twist there would be that you would have to actually hit the target (as in a regular weapon attack) - but then have the shortest CD of them all, IF you can hit the target.
- Nature-casters could, instead of a teleport (which screams "arcane magic" to me) sacrifice a use of animal form to take on some aspect of a creature. That could for example start with "aspect of the hare" that increases movespeed for a bit, to "jump like the locust" that allows them to jump in a short distance (ignoring height differences and jump over obstacles) to lategame aspects that allow them to grow wings and essentially (but much more in tune with their class fantasy) teleport to a place. Their unique twist? They can combine these things - nothing stopping them from using wings and movespeed boost - only their charges of animal forms (which, if I am honest, are more then just a bit useless on this server since the creatures forms are useless on this high a magic world).

The important part to take away here is that class balance by streamlining (every class gets everything) does not lead to more fun gameplay. Instead of handing out every strength to every class (which is already quite prevalent, looking at you improved evasion on every second piece of gear...), make every build have some ability to catch up / run ahead of the party, but differ in the details - some movement abilites (as all others kinds...) are stronger against some types of enemies, some are weak.

Wouldn't want to shot the mighty dragon with the fire aura with a teleport arrow as a squishy ranger and wouldn't really want to charge in a group of 1 big bad evil guy and 10 invisible rogues next to it as a fighter - at the same time can you imagine the fun you could have as a ranger that cannot stand up to 5-6 of monster of type x, but manages to split them - and keeps teleporting over and over between them, the monsters being forced to run to him, only that he in the time managed to get another one far away low enough that the last (teleporting...) arrow kills it - rinse and repeat?

that way teleporting mobs


So that is a thing... great, can't wait to be killed by teleporting rogues *cough* :o :lol:

such as the ever growing pile of wish shards player side with little to spend them on


That is a thing I can understand, even though I still miss a lot of gear people talk about idk what to do with wishshards anymore. But then again, you did seem to have nerfed the droprate a lot (at least thats how it feels, not complaining here, got more then enough stockpiled...). So that should fix itself over time?

Or, as i mentioned previously the growing trend for those with TP to range far ahead in events to those without TP; to name but two.


Does teleporting activate traps? Just thinking out loud here.... :twisted:

If anyone wants to volunteer their time - it would be very welcome.


I am a decent coder. Never done anything even close to the scale of kaedrin but wrote some custom prcs and hacked together some custom feats and stuff way back near the release of MotB. Haven't done much since then though, I assume the toolkit must have matured quite a bit since then. Is there anything in particular you are looking for?

Brumm
Posts: 2279

Re: Nerfing Discussions

Post#25 » Fri Jan 03, 2020 2:09 am

Zulwarn wrote:
The important part to take away here is that class balance by streamlining (every class gets everything) does not lead to more fun gameplay. Instead of handing out every strength to every class (which is already quite prevalent, looking at you improved evasion on every second piece of gear...), make every build have some ability to catch up / run ahead of the party, but differ in the details - some movement abilites (as all others kinds...) are stronger against some types of enemies, some are weak.


Heh, I like that because it is exactly what I am saying for ages now :lol:.
We have several things on the server which totally contradict this guideline but I wholeheartly agree that what you are suggesting is the way to go. Out main problem is that we cant take anything back without making people angry. They have built their characters around a specific ruleset and don't want to have that changed too much (which I can understand somehow). So Teleport for non casters is in the game. An AB bonus on the rogue set which gives rogues an even higher total AB than a high BAB class can get is in game. AC bonus for strenght-based classes that make strenght-based rogues more viable than dexterity-based are in game. I always tried to bring that stuff a bit more back in line and to outline the difference between classes a bit more. But I have to admit that my success was limited. And I have to admit that several balancing mistakes were caused by myself simply because I didn't estimate the impact of some changes correctly. And when I saw the results people didn't want me to take it back.

I'll reply to the rest of your post this weekend. Need to head to work in a bit.
And thanks again for your input! It is really appreciated.

Greetings
Brumm

FFF
Posts: 48

Re: Nerfing Discussions

Post#26 » Fri Jan 03, 2020 7:35 am

Most of the changes was great!

About mana system, Brumm was working to add it to nwn2, I think we should keep it in game.
But cost is not balanced now. Hellball is not 10x better than teleport.

50+0.5*spellcraft is a good solution.
I think regeneration is low, it should be 0.5% per second (3% per round)
10 mana teleport, 15 mana epic mass heal and 30 mana offensive spells will be good with this regeneration.

Very hard to say something about "epic gate", this spell is OP on low-levels and useless on event server.
Need a re-balance, same as dru animal companions.

Zulwarn
Posts: 7

Re: Nerfing Discussions

Post#27 » Sat Jan 04, 2020 8:36 am

50+0.5*spellcraft is a good solution.


Hmm...

Let us assume a 39 rogue (+prcs)/1 Bard for a moment here and do the math:

Spellcraft:
04 - points gained on lvl 1, assuming bard first pick
39 - points gained from level ups
22 - you can craft onto items, up to +2, on up to 11 pieces of gear - let's call that a 22.
10 - lets assume you can reach 30 INT somehow even on a rogue, with various bonuses
04 - greater heroism (from a scroll, sequencer, inventory items...)
01 - lets assume at least 1 point from various other buffs (bard song, prayer... )
That is 80 points total, 40 mana. This is a rough estimate (!) on what is reachable on a non-caster, not an exact list - going from what I know here and there is a lot of content I haven't seen yet.

That would mean that you could teleport 9 times in a row, before being forced to chuck a mana potion or wait (or in the case of a caster, simply get ethereal while mana regenerates, just saying...).

Does that solve the problem of making you invulnerable while teleporting? I honestly don't know - never had access to teleport in the first place. Remember that various casters could reach even higher numbers. Is the one round you spend on drinking the potion enough for mobs to seriously threathen you?

And are 9 teleports really not enough to cross basically any map that NWN2's engine can handle, thus getting quite a bit of distance between you and the people traversing said map without teleport?

Very hard to say something about "epic gate", this spell is OP on low-levels and useless on event server.


Do whatever you want, but remember that epic gate is literally (not even exaggerating here) the only way a warlock can even make it through the campaign, at least from a certain point on. They are that weak against decent SR / elemental immune mobs. Breaking epic gate without also taking a look at the warlock class would literally make them unable to reach even 3.1 on any reasonable pace. That spell is the lone saving grace the class has to offer in way too many situations. I know that from trying and giving up on the class somewhere around 3.8ish, because it literally became a question of "are two casts of epic gate enough to make it through here while I stay invisible and watch my buddy fight or not". As such I would highly appreciate unlimited casts (if you are willing to wait) of said spell, but diminishing the summoned creature's stats to a point where it becomes as useless as say the "walk the dead" invocation defeats that purpose.

Fraggle
Posts: 164

Re: Nerfing Discussions

Post#28 » Sat Jan 04, 2020 1:21 pm

Hello all,
to get rid of the no Nerf Policy is giant, but may necessary Step. To balance such broken Engine/ Game is really tough work and will never without rearrange stats, to do this only with BETA Server testing will cost to much time, as definitv noone likes to be Online trapped alone on a Server. Testing on BETA feels really ugly. On the other Hand it leads, than to go live quick with Changes, with sometimes weird/crude Results. This is faster than and more satisfying than startng an endless testing series on BETA. To change and rebalance is a mighty, but doubleedged Sword and at least essential.

I cant say exactly why Players left or leave this Server. The Documantion could be much much better, but to be fair, Dokumantation of any Features is only an Opinion/Thought how Developer think it should work. This is the most broken Game i ever played and helps to increase my Abilities to analyze Games. DB is from Stoneage and make the Situation much worse.
I agree with Tom, ist long way to make a Toon. Spending hours of playing/testing several Feats and different Setups. At least you got a Special Relationship to that Toon and when than any Changes effects ( despite ist necessary or not ) the playing Style or in worst Case it makes unplayable, this really hurts Players Feelings.
In case of i.e. the Ftr Xbow ist obvious that the stats was not made for the now repaired XBow Feats. But nevertheless e Solution for Compensation is needed, especially when Players donated for that Item.
It would be nice when first at all there woulkd be a Conclusion from all Sides, Players and Devstaff before moving Forward with Balance/Nerf.

Samyx
Posts: 697

Re: Nerfing Discussions

Post#29 » Sat Jan 04, 2020 3:32 pm

Hi
I was more or less ok with the last changes, if only to have Ant and Brumm not discouraged.
I'll let the dust settle before the next changes, but about documentation I can say four things :

1/ I disagree with Zulwarn on the building documentation. There are numerous tricks we know or not, and the best way to learn them is simply to discuss with other players, as we are a friendly community. On discord, on even better in game, we have places (spider pub) for that.

2/ It is usually NOT the strong point for developpers to document their mighty work. I had understood that the content library was auto-updating itself with files content, which is pretty amazing. So I recommend we don't invent AGAIN a new source of documentation, simply use the one existing

3/ Now about content library, I have noticed several miss which would be nice to fix :
- Monk 31level gives 2d12 magic unarmed instead of 3D12
- Thugs get 5 free feats I can't remember which levels
- Swashbuckler special damage is not clearly indicated

4/ Set item catalog
Ranger and Bard sets are missing. Also it would be very useful to have the "counting" class clearly indicated in the set. For instance, BG counting as fighter is nice to know.

If I can help reviewing / editing documentation, I'd be pleased to do so.

Hope this helps,

Samyx

Tom D
Posts: 24

Re: Nerfing Discussions

Post#30 » Sun Jan 05, 2020 2:44 am

I would be glad to help with documentation around set items and prc classes as well. I would also add minimum levels. I am glad to send docs that can be cnp or if we have edit access that could be temporarily given I can use that.

Is there any value in going to a wiki style for the content library? I know we had a rot wiki is not used much now with the superior Player Portal but we could get some benefit from crowd documentation.

I think this friendly community as Sam said would be glad to pitch in.

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