Nerfing Discussions

Trading, random questions, rants about your favorite sports team loosing, or anything else!
addict-ant
Posts: 710

Re: Nerfing Discussions

Post#11 » Wed Jan 01, 2020 11:54 am

I mentioned some of this on discord so i thought i'd put it all here:

For me it feels like i have to work twice as hard on events as i did 18 months/2 years ago and from what i see, the biggest factor for that is caster power, though there are of course others i'm sure.

The worrying trend is casters teleporting ahead into a mob pack, spend 1 or 2 rounds blowing almost all of them away. Rinse. Repeat. By the time the casters have got to the end of the map, the rest of the group are lucky to be half way mopping up the remains. I foresee this only getting worse with the introduction of mana for TP.

The number of times i struggle to keep ahead of the group, scrambling to put down mobs has increased, becoming unsustainable. [Seriously, there are events where my hand is hurting from the level of mouse action required]

Due to a no. of factors (highest being mind immune removal imo), there are now very, very few mobs who present a challenge to the average event group and casters in particularly.

If something isn't done, open hack'n'slash events may become a thing of the past.


P.S. i see as i write this FFF has posted - i've not had chance to read that btw.

EDIT - i see Brumm has just made multiple commits that may address this issue - i'll go take a look. Feedback on them would be appreciated.
Image

Samyx
Posts: 741

Re: Nerfing Discussions

Post#12 » Wed Jan 01, 2020 12:27 pm

Some Proposals
___________________

1/ ROGUE : Remove rogue set Ab bonus, replace rogue (and only rogue) medium BAB with high BAB.

2/ RANGER : Protective ward now accepts 4 non-rangers casters to allow for ab bonus, therefore allowing more ranger builds. Marksman PRC levels could be included in the protective ward calculation, even more choices and reviving that PRC

3/ WARLOCK : Have ROT special bonus eldritch dices calculated on the basis on 1 warlock (and only warlock) level = 1 ROT bonus dice.

4/ CASTERS : Have teleport cost up to 10 mana per use. 3 is very low and will not prevent massive jump frenzy. Additionally it will make HIPs useful again.

5/ FIGHTERS : Give them Thougness at level 9 for free and Weapon Supremacy for free at 18. Make fighting great again.

6/ HEXBLADE : Have the curse considering full hexblade levels instead of 1/2, push the doom pet in the same line as the animal companions (with a bonus, as I'm not sure Hexs can take animal companions buffing feats), and decrease the minimum level for the set, to 12 for instance.

7/ SCOUT : full BAB instead of med. A new class enters the fray !

8 / WEAPON MASTER : Reduce the number of levels to 5 for full bonus. This class is way too weak in this uber-magical world.
For instance : Superior weapon focus at WM 2, Increase mult at WM 4, Ki critical at WM 5.

Zulwarn
Posts: 7

Re: Nerfing Discussions

Post#13 » Wed Jan 01, 2020 6:15 pm

Heya, thought I gave some feedback from a "newer" player here.

I just recently returned to RoT after having played idk.. a year ago and then two years ago. I left both times because I felt overwhelmed with all the changes happening and no information to be found anywhere on how to build your toons what mistakes to avoid, what was good, what gear you need to get...

First of all: I have no clue what the situation in high level / event content is. But I can offer you a bit of insight into what it is like if you are not there yet, and tbh.. it ain't looking peachy. I've got a 3/5 set item arcane and a rogue that got shelved because I got told (and found out the hard way...) that "you need full set for them to work" (and for some reason you build them STR-based here... not exactly how I imagine nimble rogues, but oh well, I can live with that).

Now don't get me wrong - I know the NWN2 engine very well, but this server... is something else. It ain't even AD&D 3.5 anymore, if you ask me, but that is offtopic.

The arcane got started because "they are quite good even without set". I'm honestly not too keen on playing it, much rather would play the rogue, but the arcane kills lots of stuff decently fast... which is pretty much what you need to do to find set items, right? So the project is: use the arcane to farm items to hopefully trade for rogue set items.

And now you gonna change rogue AND the sorcerer around again... sigh. And you introduce mana? What does that even do? Is that documented anywhere? Do I need that now? You need mana for hellball now? In addition to charges? How does mana regenerate? Is it found on equipment or is it a static rate? Is this basically to enforce a cooldown on hellball and teleport? Why not just... you know.. add a cooldown to hellball and teleport? Or is it used for other epic spells too (of which I know of a grand total of one that is semi-usefull, epic gate...).

Do I not get something or is hellball really that strong? I tried it out on a sorcerer and a warlock and while it is a nice little damage bonus it is maybe 20% stronger then just casting a maxed acid fog or empowered flame-thingamaggigy. And it has two charges... for a feat slot. That imho is not anywhere near overpowered, considering some of the other feats you can get on this server - or is there some secret RoT-voodo that improves hellball?

The point I am trying to get accross is that changes like these, that have the potential to kill builds (even if you "just need to respec") are hugely disruptive for slower / newer players. I honestly have NO clue how to rebuild a rogue if you nerf the set (hell, I have no clue how the build I tried to follow works!), so until I can find a new buildguide (that hopefully will stay relevant for more then a couple months), that toon is gone for me.

I honestly don't care if my rogue is going to be 10% worse when I finally get the set (I wouldn't even know, since I had no basis to compare it to). But I DO care about static goalposts - if you keep moving the goalposts before I can get to them I'm not going to accelerate the pace. I'm going to find another game. Or in other words: if I need to change my build all the time, because of balancing reasons I'm playing the wrong game here - might very well be the case.

So.. how can you maintain game balance and at the same time keep newer / more inexperienced players up to speed? Write documentation.... and massive quantities of it. Full build-guides that explain not only what to take, but also the why of it and most importantly: keep them current! That should include a documentation of mechanics (i.e. why steadfast is necessary...), gearing for various budgets (don't assume everyone has full-set...), the leveling-up process, crafting suggestions and more - if you want an example of a good build guide check out for example path of exile. Similar high complexity, but a host of really good build guides make the game playable for the average joe even if you are not a developer of know one personally (-;

The other option ofc is to at least try and keep somewhat close to what people know from NWN2. The more layers of changes you add, the more documentation you need to keep current. And there are frankly a staggering amount of changes already for newer players to navigate. Adding mana as yet another new RoT-specific system is a an example of such a change that makes RoT deviate further and further from NWN2 (and in this case: AD&D). While there might be a really good reason for that, I cannot find anything about it anywhere - there is a commit log that basically says it's implemented now, but no explanation for why it was deemed necessary.

And, on an unrelated note... I was thinking about spending some bucks on RoT again. RoT is fun! I like the active DMs and their events, I like the (even though slightly cheesy ^^) story, I like the fact you keep a server running even so many years after release, but... on what? You are going to "tinker" with the rogue set, you are going to nerf (to the ground? barely noticeable?) arcanes and the only other class I have is a warlock... which last I tried was so broken it literally could not kill most mobs because everything (and I mean everything...) was either immune to blasts due to SR or immune to acid (for the one blast where SR is ignored, can't remember the name on top of my head, 4th level invocation), which kills the class. And even then, the warlock set seems... eh... how do I put it.. pointless? There is a damage bonus on it, that I can only assume works like the other set bonuses for weapon damage, while you would need blast damage increase? Or is that bonus maybe added to ranged touch attacks somehow (kaedrin does some "black magic" with his code to make that work with i.e. daggerspell mage weapons and sneak attack, so technically it is possible...). Add how that bonus works to the list of things that really need documentation.

So here I am again, at the same point as the last two times I left. Confused and slightly disapointed - not because of the changes themselves (changes in a mmporg are invetiable) but because the lack of documentation / clear communication of them. As far as the nerfs themselves? Do whatever you feel necessary, but document them well, including updating build guides! And at least consider to bundle nerfs like this into semi-anual or anual releases - so you don't need to fix your build all the time.

FFF
Posts: 49

Re: Nerfing Discussions

Post#14 » Wed Jan 01, 2020 6:20 pm

Nerfs is not live now, but I think they will change a lot.
10% health after Mass Drown or 30% health is a big difference.
Most crazy things on last event: 7k damage to vampires with sunburst and killing fire immun mobs with fire. Both are nerfed.
Sorcs with full Epic Warding feats will get 70% damage, it's 16.7% more than was before(60%). I saw ~90 damage per hit above characters head quite often, now it will be 100+ damage and more concentration failures.
Very hard to say something about wail nerf - should test it on next event.

EDIT - agree with Zulwarn that 30 mana is too high cost for hellball, it's not so strong. Most of characters will have 43 spellcraft, +5 int mod(14 base int and forge something to +6) and a few spellcraft points on some random gear. So, they will have 60-70 mana total. It's only 2 hellball uses, regeneration will take 5 minutes and don't forget that mana will be used for teleports too.

I think 3 mana for teleport is OK, mass heal should cost 5 mana, hellball should cost 10 mana(damage should cost more than healing, it's easy to get full potential from damage spell, but healing will be used with much less effect very often), other spells - depend on their power after rework. If change nothing - 10 mana for epic gate and 1 mana for epic call lightning storm(36d6 damage, it's less than fireball).
In my opinion, "Epic call lightning storm" should be changed to 2d20*CL (it will be +/- same as hellball), the cost with damage like that should be 10 too.

Zulwarn
Posts: 7

Re: Nerfing Discussions

Post#15 » Wed Jan 01, 2020 7:07 pm

So, they will have 60-70 mana total.


My toon at lvl 27 has 62, now that I finally get what that new bar on the character screen means. Would it have been to OP to at least add the word "Mana:" in front of the bar? ^^

And since you seem to at least understand most of these changes: is sunburst pointless now? Should I remove it from my spellbook? I just releveled specifically to get it in, since I read in a forum thread that it actually works against vampires on this server...

FFF
Posts: 49

Re: Nerfing Discussions

Post#16 » Wed Jan 01, 2020 7:36 pm

Zulwarn wrote:My toon at lvl 27 has 62, now that I finally get what that new bar on the character screen means. Would it have been to OP to at least add the word "Mana:" in front of the bar? ^^

And since you seem to at least understand most of these changes: is sunburst pointless now? Should I remove it from my spellbook? I just releveled specifically to get it in, since I read in a forum thread that it actually works against vampires on this server...

My lvl 40 SS have only 42 mana :)
But I will relevel a character to add 13 more points to spellcraft.
I think you are using a lot of gear that u will change in future, but that gear give you some spellcraft now.

Set items give no spellcraft at all, DM items that can give some spellcraft are: gloves, shield and helm.
FS have a set helm and gloves, so 1 item with spellcraft(shield) - and need to roll high numbers for more important things there(heal, concentration, hp)
Arcanes have a set helm, gloves and staff - no slots to improve spellcraft at all
Nature casters want to get +20 AC with monk dip, so, no shield. Possible to get some spellcraft, but concentration is more important, for example my character have only 32 spellcraft before rebuild for new rules and roll a lot of items.
Warlocks have set helm and gloves, 1 item to roll spellcraft.

About Sunburst - yes, as a damage spell it looks weak now. But u can blind enemies with it.

Zulwarn
Posts: 7

Re: Nerfing Discussions

Post#17 » Wed Jan 01, 2020 7:52 pm

I think you are using a lot of gear that u will change in future, but that gear give you some spellcraft now.


I use a DM dagger and some sorc shield from 3.17 or so... been a while. And I have a total of 0 abilities that take mana currently, so eh... idc.

You mention warlock like it was relevant.. is it playable currently?

FFF
Posts: 49

Re: Nerfing Discussions

Post#18 » Wed Jan 01, 2020 8:22 pm

Zulwarn wrote:I use a DM dagger and some sorc shield from 3.17 or so...

Hm, I think I was wrong about DM items, there are some other system and it depends on more different factors...
Zulwarn wrote:You mention warlock like it was relevant.. is it playable currently?

Brumm fixed something for warlocks, now they are able to hit enemies with eldritch doom.
But damage is very low, I hope they will get more improvements, at least AQ.

FFF
Posts: 49

Re: Nerfing Discussions

Post#19 » Wed Jan 01, 2020 9:05 pm

OK, what can I say about mana on my own characters:

Dex-Cha FS have some spellcraft on rings, other itens give nothing. He have high base int(16) and +8 from gear(random), 58 mana total. will be 71 if I rebuild a character to have less open lock and more spellcraft. Up to 81 if roll perfect rings with high Heal+Concentration+HP+Spellcraft (I don't believe it's possible to do easy)

Str-Cha FS have less int, so, [b]51 mana[/b]. I can forge something to add +6 int (3 mana) and relevel with more spellcraft(13 more), will be 67 total (but I'm not sure can I get 13 more points or not)

SS-BG have a gaunlets with spellcraft(only +3, but there are 9 heal, 10 concentration and 50 hp) and no more items with spellcraft. He is using halisstra's comb(-2 int inventory item), 42 mana total. I can relevel to add 13 spellcraft, remove a comb(improve a cloak with Sibyl) and forge something for +6 int, will be 59 mana total.

Sorc have spellcraft on a cloak, belt and a ring, +12 int from set - 71 total and 75 buffed!(g.heroism) will be 84/87 with relevel. That's a lot, ok.

Monk/Cleric with crossbow have no any spellcraft items, int mod is 0, but he have 40 mana. Why did I learn spellcraft 30 for that character - I don't know :D btw, he don't need more, he run faster than teleport and will never use epic spells.

Aenain
Posts: 32

Re: Nerfing Discussions

Post#20 » Thu Jan 02, 2020 7:37 am

Zulwarn wrote:Heya, thought I gave some feedback from a "newer" player here.

I just recently returned to RoT after having played idk.. a year ago and then two years ago. I left both times because I felt overwhelmed with all the changes happening and no information to be found anywhere on how to build your toons what mistakes to avoid, what was good, what gear you need to get...

....


Most of the discussions happen in discord message channels. Devs and DMs are active and there is a build channel where the experts can offer you help on developing a build you like, and explain what/how/why it works.

The mana changes are two fold as I see them. Teleport was being abused because it breaks aggro and had unlimited uses. Also, epic spells had 1 or maybe 2 uses per day, which isn't very epic. By converting all of those to mana based, you fix both issues and make it a choice of what epics/teleports you want to use without it being OP as teleport currently is.

A lot of these changes were recommended by players in discord.

Return to “General Discussions”

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 14 guests

cron