Nerfing Discussions

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addict-ant
Posts: 712

Nerfing Discussions

Post#1 » Tue Dec 31, 2019 5:05 am

It's been briefly discussed in the main Discord channel about nerfing some blatant OP-ness and Brumm suggested a forum post so everyone can have their say. No changes are likely to occur without consensus.

Suggestions thus far:
1. Nerf the Fighter xbow - no exact stats yet suggested.
2. Reduce the Rogue AB bonus - no exact reduction yet suggested.
3. Nerf caster power - reduce the ER bonus to caster level from 5% to 4% per ER.

Feel free to discuss and/or add other ideas for reasoned debate.
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konst3d
Posts: 635

Re: Nerfing Discussions

Post#2 » Tue Dec 31, 2019 5:16 am

1) Yes.
2) Yes.
3) Yes.

Pls. Nerf "no-nerf" policy.
Yeah, when you are nerfing things, you can hurt someones feelings but long-term wise, nerfing OP things will result in a much better server health.
Magic is impressive, but now Minsc leads! Swords for everyone!

Aenain
Posts: 70

Re: Nerfing Discussions

Post#3 » Tue Dec 31, 2019 8:10 am

I agree with all the proposed changes.

For the record, I stand as Konst. Nerfing sucks when the bat hits you, but overall it helps the server in general.

bsb5652
Site Admin
Posts: 3001
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Re: Nerfing Discussions

Post#4 » Tue Dec 31, 2019 11:51 am

konst3d wrote:1)
Pls. Nerf "no-nerf" policy.


I definitely think we need to get rid of this policy. We lost alot of players before enforcing it, and honestly they were going to leave anyhow. Also, there were issues in the way we attempted to fix/nerf things that needed further planning and time to implement that caused abrasion, etc.

With the way we are doing things now and have been for some time, we can carefully and slowly make the changes that are needed with the support and full transparency with the existing player base.
Brian Bloom

Realms of Trinity Executive Producer & Game Creator
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Tom D
Posts: 47

Re: Nerfing Discussions

Post#5 » Tue Dec 31, 2019 12:57 pm

As you guys know, I love playing ROT and am on almost every day since joining 3+ years ago. Forgive the length of this post, but know it is because I love playing here so much.

I am not anti nerf, but I do feel we need to discuss what is really OP and why it matters? Part of the fun is looking at powerful class and item combos and then working towards them.

For example, when Monks were re-done and allowed for xbow use and there was a nice FTR xbow, I set out to create a toon that would combine those and tried multiple combos of ftr, monk, elem archer, etc until I found a build I really liked. I spent a lot of time trading until I had the sets, including the ftr xbow and finally found a toon I really liked. Now we are considering making the xbow "less" because some feel it is OP?

I did the same with the rogue set - I built multiple toons with different ability combos - str/dex, str/cha, dex/cha - to try and build a rogue set user I liked the most. I donated and traded for rogue kukris. Same with arcanes - sorc based, wiz based. Same with divines and natures. I have built many level 40 toons to make fun and different combos, with another 8 on their way.

So my question is, what is OP and who defines it? If one toon can clear a map in 10 mins and another takes 15, so what? How does that take away from the fun? All toons have various levels of effectiveness - some due to set boni and some due to class power and some due to random equipment. I am not sure how nerf'ing something that has been out for over 3 years makes the server better?

I feel the same way about other people's builds they like and have invested in. I think the dart ranger is an excellent build around the fact that sneak damage is piercing with darts. I don't think it is why prey hunter was developed and don't like the concept for myself, but others do and their 700+ deadlies seem very powerful to me. But it doesn't hurt me or the server if they run around and do that.

I guess what I fear is trying to meet an arbitrary standard of "appropriate" power level that results in diminished enthusiasm. It would be a bit of a gut punch to find out months of work and donations/trades was just taken away.

So my vote would be no to these 3 proposed nerfs.

I would support amending the no-nerf policy to time based. For example, anything x months or years old will not be nerfed. That way, we all know the standard and if we choose to build around a new rule/item, we know the risk, but we can comfortably build around rules and items that have been in circulation and tested.

Samyx
Posts: 769

Re: Nerfing Discussions

Post#6 » Tue Dec 31, 2019 6:57 pm

After considering it a bit

1. Nerf the Fighter xbow - no exact stats yet suggested. => No, and if it is stil done I'd request a free set item of my choice in exchange for my ftr xbow. Luckily I didn't invest so much time in my bolter.
2. Reduce the Rogue AB bonus - no exact reduction yet suggested. = >No
3. Nerf caster power - reduce the ER bonus to caster level from 5% to 4% per ER=> No

In exchange : Fix the remaining broken things => YES

kc2345
Posts: 803

Re: Nerfing Discussions

Post#7 » Tue Dec 31, 2019 7:09 pm

While I do agree that the 3 things stated are indeed somewhat out of tune with the power level of other items/aspects of the server, I do have some concerns with how the adjustments will be implemented.

I do understand Tom's view on a nerf being a gut punch, and it should not be something to be taken lightly. On the Dev side however, when players (including myself) start to adopt a "Why bother with X new ability/item when Y old thing is so much more powerful" attitude, it makes it hard for the server to introduce new things without runaway power inflation.

I'm overall neutral to whether the changes should be implemented or not, as it will eat up dev time for something that may or may not be important, but if there is a go-ahead on a change, would like it to be implemented in a manner as fair as possible.

1)
The current crop of Fighter set weapons are honestly not well designed. It seems that the weapons were all assigned 2d12 Electric (this is fine, but seems to be missing from the longbow), and a random assignment of 3d12 Piercing (Fine for slashing/bludgeoning weapons, godawful for piercing weapons, with slings weirdly getting 3d10 piercing) or 3d12 Bludgeoning (awful for anything thanks to ER3 adamantite). It would be a better idea to standardize the stats of ALL the Fighter set weapons so that the itemization is not a factor at all. IMO, removing the weird clashing 3d12 Physical and just giving them all 4d12 Electric (+17 dmg over a non magic) as a damage bonus would be ideal.

The Fighter set Xbow was designed for an era where Xbows have an attack cap. It's pretty obvious that with the uncapping of the number of Xbow attacks, this weapon became significantly more powerful than intended.

So while I do think it is too strong (by about +20 dmg per shot), I have concerns with how a nerf should be implemented as there is no elegant solution in my mind.

i) Grandfathering the old Xbows and implementing weaker stats for future ones. This solution would make old players happiest, but would create an unfairness for newer players. Dev side, this is the easiest to implement.

ii) Deleting the old Xbow and having existing players get a new one. This has the potential to be very messy, as there may be players who return after a long absence and find their gear to be missing. The loss of runes and forging fees is also very significant, and has the potential to generate a lot of unhappiness for people who donated for it.

iii) On-the fly editing of base stats. This has the potential to be very messy, as the resultant weapon has the potential to be very buggy.

2)
Rougeset AB nerf. Generally fine with this, but would prefer a coupling of a more severe AB nerf with setting Rogues to high BAB. We would ideally make rogues playable even without their set. Currently, the set was designed to give them a leg up due to their mediocre AB. Powerbuilders started stacking high BAB PRCs or Arcane/Divine casting to stack the AB bonuses to ridiculous levels, leading to toons that had huge AB and damage.

3)
Caster ER scaling nerf. Agree that Arcanes/Nature casters are far too strong, but think a blanket change like this is a really bad idea. For one, this hits FS/Clerics as well, who are nowhere near being OP. Next, buff spells such as Barkskin, Bless, Divine Favor, Spell Resistance will need another formula re-calculation.

A more appropriate change would be to lower the bonus damage from Explosive/Epic Explosive if a damage output nerf is desired, and possibly the base damage dice/formula for problematic spells.

Outside of this, abilities like Epic Warding should also be looked at, and more systemic problems such as casters being able to put all 4 ER3 metals on Armor without sacrificing damage - leading to them being tougher than melee while still doing competitive damage should be addressed as well.
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Brumm
Posts: 2347

Re: Nerfing Discussions

Post#8 » Wed Jan 01, 2020 9:56 am

Well, I would say we don't touch the Fighter crossbow but just set the number of attacks back to what it was in vanialla NWN2. This makes more sense RP-wise because it doesn't make any sense to fire 6 or even more shots per round with a crossbow and we keep the initial intention Mort had when he relased the Crossbow.

kc2345
Posts: 803

Re: Nerfing Discussions

Post#9 » Wed Jan 01, 2020 10:36 am

An unfortunate side effect of that approach is that you completely obliterate non-fighter set crossbow users - like monk or FS based crossbows just due to a poorly itemized weapon.

Base Xbows without Naam's fix are so completely broken that nobody would use it. They get 1 attack, 1 from rapid reload, 1 from Rapid Shot and 1 from haste for a cap of 4 attacks/round. With Manyshot doubling the first 3 attacks, they cap at 7 per round. A longbow or any other ranged weapon caps at 13 per round with this method. So to actually have a Xbow powerful enough to "balance" versus a longbow, it would need a scaling bonus that give it about 46% more damage per shot versus a longbow build.

The Fighter set weapon does about +20-+44 damage per shot over what a "balanced" weapon would look like. This means that unless damage per hit lies under 100 or so, even the Fighter set Crossbow is woefully underpowered, to say nothing of the non set crossbow users.

The TL:DR message is that
1) Side effects of such a blunt instrument approach on all crossbow users, even those without the weapon.

2) Mort's damage bonus on the Xbow was far from enough to overcome their weakness in the base game. You are assuming he actually got the balancing damage numbers right.
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FFF
Posts: 49

Re: Nerfing Discussions

Post#10 » Wed Jan 01, 2020 11:03 am

Reduce CL from 5% to 4% per ER is a bad idea, some buffs will be broken.
And most of casters are not OP, only wiz/sorc and SS.
My ideas how to fix them:
1) reduce "Epic warding" with full feats from 40% to 30%
2) reduce "Spirit Form" concealment from 50% to 35%
3) change "Drown" and "Mass Drown" from 90% of hp to 70% of hp
4) remove "Wail of the banshee" and "Weird" from game
5) reduce "Avasculate" from 3000 max to 2000 max
6) remove instant kill vampires effect from "Sunburst"
7) "Instill Vulnerability" should not stack
8) "Plague" shoud reduce elemental immunity by 0.5% per CL
This is enough to make wiz/sorc and SS much worse, they will not be OP more.

ps: 9) add full CL to "mass inflict ... wounds", FS offensive spells are very weak now.

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