SUGGESTION: Capping Spell Damage for Bosses

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Lady Seline
Posts: 64

Re: SUGGESTION: Capping Spell Damage for Bosses

Post#21 » Sat Aug 03, 2019 8:08 am

Brownyman wrote:I'm trying to figure out which side of the fence you are on over these spells because it just seems to come across as a rant about everything in general!

Damn right I'm ranty. I'm getting fed up of people going on about casters being OP, blah blah blah, when I litterally watch an entire party outlive me, and out damage me every Friday. I watch combat damage numbers float up 6 or seven times per person per round continuously with 250+ then watch my spells land and a nice big fat string of zeros float up from a maximized missile storm, I'll then cast an empowered chain lightning and watch it land for a little under 300, or I cast a L9 spell and watch a big fat nothing occur at all since its a save and beat SR or fail.. I litterally feel like a waste of space until I find one of the few mobs not immune to avasculate like the cubes and finally, after an hour of inadequacy I see a once off 6980 float up... and the second cast less than 2K.

Brownyman wrote:Avasculate is no save potentially 9,999hp.


No... avasculate is a touch attack with a BAB of 20 at L40 with no ability to benefit from an item attack or enhancement bonus ONLY dex will apply, thats resisted with spell resistance and that also does a potential 0hp damage. Its half current, round down, not half max. Half CURRENT! it can do 9999 vs a 19,998hp target... (seriously, you have 20K hp enemies as standard?), and the next time it will do only 5K... then 2.5K, then 1.25K, then 750, then 375 assuming you succeed in breaching both its AC AND its SR every time. Thats TWO saves. not no save. AC based defense followed by SR.

Spells will typicaly have either Touch attack, no save or a save and no TA. This is by design. Almost all spells are subject to SR except a few... usually ones that conjure an object into being and hurl it at the foe. E.G. melfs arrow, summons (including creeping doom insects), moonbolt. Avasculate is of course the former, it being a beam of negative energy striking out at a living entity and forcing its blood to explode out through it pores if it connects.

Conversely the melee spear skill will do 3K, then 3K, then 3K, then 3K. so it will have outdamaged the avascualte spam in 12 rounds (6 attacks, within 36 seconds (sorry 72 seconds, forgot its 1 every 12 seconds skill) of the fight starting, ignoring the fact they have been hitting for 200ish for another 12+ attacks inbetween each stab). it will just about equalled after just 5 attacks. In reality, between the first and second cast and each subsequent cast the rest of the party would have chipped off substantial amounts of the boss' HP and the second spell will hit for no where near 5K in this example.


Brownyman wrote:Mass Drown has a Fort save, enemies that i consider potential party wipers are Eon Sculpters. they have a massively inflated caster lvl and DC so its a hard place. Simply put, if you have crap saves or slow reactions to being hit, you are done.

Lady Seline wrote:Based off mass spell modifier (+4SL) mass drown implies drown is a L5 spell...
Simply put both the damage of drown is too high compared to its equivalent spell avasculate (should be 50% or less), is possibly 1 lvl too low, and mass drown should not exist as it would be a MINIMUM L10 spell baseed off Drown being L6.

So sounds to me, fix would be drop damage on both to 50%, MAYBE raise its SL to 7 (if no other changes made), remove mass version that should not even exist by D&D rules, and allow physical (bludgeoning) immunity to apply in full as per the penalty on spells like ice storm and corpse explosion.
Spoiler: show
"Feat: Mass Effect Spell (Metamagic)

Your spells can affect more targets.

Benefit: A spell that normally affects a single target now affects 1 target /caster level, no two of which can be more than 30 ft. apart. A mass effect spell uses up a spell slot 4 levels higher than the spell’s actual level."


As I clearly said above, I was not adverse to drown being altered as it was effectively replicating the damage output of an epic spell.

Brownyman wrote:What if avasculate had a Fort save, make the save no damage! would you be happy with a no damage cap nerf?


Fine with me, but while your at it drop it to a L6 spell, up its base damage to 90%, and then give us all a mass avasculate at L9, 'Kay? (joking)

If you add a save, you remove its touch attack, though how that spell would then differ from finger of death (also L7) I'm not sure... Since this proposed change is litterally turning it into FoD but instead of "die or take 40D6 damage on passed save" (blocked by the usual magic damage immunity of foes) its "1/2 damage or zero damage on save" for your proposed avasculate....

PS. Comparing drown to avasculate as I did above is a perfectly valid way to show drown was overstatted. D&D has clearly defined damage to SL and CL formula outlined in the DMG. A direct comparison between a L6 spell of any class should be comparable.

Take for exmaple 5th ed rules:
Spoiler: show
Spell Level 1 Target Save 1/2 Damage 1 Target Save 0 Damage 2+ Targets Save 1/2 Damage 2+ Targets Save 0 Damage
Cantrip 5 ½ (1d10) 3 ½ (1d6)
1st 11 (2d10) 13 ¾ (3d8) 7 (2d6) 8¾ (2d8)
2nd 16 ½ (3d10) 20 ⅝ (6d6) 14 (4d6) 17 ½ (6d6)
3rd 27 ½ (5d10) 33 ¾ (6d10) 21 (6d6) 26 ¼ (4d12)
4th 33 (6d10) 41 ¼ (10d8) 23 ½ (7d6) 29 ⅜ (8d6)
5th 44 (8d10) 55 (10d10) 28 (8d6) 35 (10d6)
6th 55 (10d10) 68 ¾ (15d8) 38 ½ (11d6) 48 ⅛ (14d6)
7th 60 ½ (11d10) 75 ⅝ (17d8) 42 (12d6) 52 ½ (15d6)
8th 66 (12d10) 82 ½ (15d10) 45 ½ (13d6) 56 ⅞ (16d6)
9th 82 ½ (15d10) 103⅛ (16d12) 49 (14d6) 61 ¼ (11d10)

The adjacent table is derived from material in the Dungeon Master's Guide. If a spell has a cast time of "1 action" and a duration of Instantaneous, it should generally do damage according to its level according to the adjacent table. A spell with significant drawbacks can get away with doing a little more than the recommended damage, whereas one with powerful effects in addition to damage should probably deal less damage.

For each damage column, the first value represents ideal average damage for a spell of the given level. The value in parenthesis shows damage dice that, on average, will be equal or nearly equal to the first value. You can generally substitute any damage dice that will yield a similar average without significantly changing the spell's balance.

Note that even in the SRD, some spells defy these suggestions. This is most notable with 3rd level and 9th level spells available to sorcerers and wizards. Most classes get a boost to damage at 5th level; where many classes get an Extra Attack feature at this point, sorcerers and wizards instead get a few unusually powerful 3rd level spells like fireball. Meanwhile, these class's 9th level spells (see meteor swarm and wish) seem to follow completely different rules. When making spells for these classes at these levels, one may go a bit beyond the norms, but on D&D Wiki, homebrew spells that are greater than or equal to fireball and meteor swarm are frowned upon.

Damage over time

There are spells which can deal damage once every turn for a number of turns, and these can come in one of several different varieties. The damage dealt by these spells is still based on the Damage Table to the right.

Stationary hazard. With this kind of spell, you create a cloud or other hazard that is fixed in space. Some examples of these are cloudkill, wall of fire, and incendiary cloud. Usually these spells require concentration. An important aspect of this spell is that it is fixed in space, so a creature will only be subject to the damage again if it doesn't remove itself from the hazard. Generally this type of spell should use the same damage as an instantaneous spell. A hazard which covers a large area or a very nuanced area might be better dealing a little less damage.

Repeating action. This kind of spell lets you use your action to deal damage on your turn when you cast it, and lets you repeat that action on subsequent turns for the duration. Usually these spells require concentration. This kind of spell should deal half as much damage as a spell for its level, according to the Damage Table. A good example of this is flame blade. The flame blade spell lasts for a while, but each attack with it only deals an average damage of 10.5. Referencing the adjacent table, we can figure out a 2nd-level spell with a single target that does nothing on a failed attack roll should deal 21 damage. Of course, half of 21 is 10.5, meaning this is a virtually perfect amount of damage for the spell.

Second hit. This kind of spell deals ⅔ of its damage instantaneously, then 1/3 of its damage at the end of the target's next turn. In the SRD, this kind of spell deals approximately as much damage as an instantaneous spell, albeit with the damage split between the two "hits." A good example of this is acid arrow.

Repeating bonus action. This kind of spell is similar to repeating action, but on subsequent turns only requires a bonus action to use the effect again. Some examples include the spells arcane sword and flaming sphere. Based on these two spells, one can see at lower levels this kind of spell will deal about half as much as the recommended damage, whereas at high levels it may only deal ⅕. This difference is largely due to the fact player-characters' actions are designed to scale in damage much more rapidly than their bonus actions. As a rough guideline, this spell should deal ½ as much recommended at 1st or 2nd spell level; 1/3 as much at 3rd and 4th; ¼ as much at 5th and 6th; and ⅕ at levels higher than 6th.

Automatic damage. A more powerful damage-over-time spell involves an action to cast the spell, and only requires concentration to deal damage on subsequent turns. Unless the spell level is very high, or the damage is very low, this kind of spell should afford the target(s) a saving throw every round to end the damaging effect. There are no spells in the SRD which fall into this category, and the only one in the Player's Handbook which does is searing smite, which only deals 1d6 damage and can be ended by any creature that uses its action to douse the fire. Suffice to say any spell which does automatic damage over time should have very low damage output compared to other spells of similar level.


As you can see its formulaic, precise, and clearly defined (though would obviously need altering to put it in line with RoT mechanics).

Drown is excessive, but effectively replicating a save vs death like finger of death (L7). My wail of the banshee spell (aka mass drown) has both a save, and SR, same as drown but is countered with death ward, doomguaide L10, legendary material enhancement, and shadow shield. Drown's problem is it bypasses death effect immunity due to it not having that subtype clasification so it's hitting through death wards. Same problem originally present with implosion spell for Nwn1. Since instant death effect 'pass save or nothing' spells are frustrating for casters, I advocated its change to 50% current, over the add death subtype classification to drown. I also proposed allowing physical immunities and Dr to apply to its damage, so tanky players were still tanky in addition or as an alternative, simlar to how both the fire and physical components of corpse explosion are mittigated.

Other rediculously over statted spells that need downgrades are persistant damage cloud effects. EG incendary cloud and acid fog.

Look at the damage of tentacles:
Wizard: 1d6+1 points per two caster levels of bludgeoning damage (possibly 1D4 times the spell description is confusing)
Warlock: 1d6 + 40 (invoker's charisma x 2) in bludgeoning damage to all targets within, plus 2d6 cold damage

These last 1 round / lvl this means for each cast they do basicly... 40D6 + 800 damage if the spell alsts the full duration. Compared to 40D6 of a fireball. The bonus damage comes from the fact you can walk out its aoe, and also it takes 4 minutes to apply this damage, and each tick is reduced by DR/DI individually. These are "balanced" (though in all honesty I've never really seen my wizard tentacles hit for any damage on Fridays due to them not bypassing physical DR like melee hits or monks. Nor do they grapple. The wizard sorc version is in fact horrificly underpowered. Warlock ones from Yurei fare a lot better 'cos they got an ER grapple % chance increase unlike black tentacles making it an effective CC spell though it too does no real damage).

Blade barrier:
1d6+1 per lvl for lvl rounds.
Also pretty balanced.
Similar to warlock tentacles, but last longer. A fair tradeoff for physical damage usually.

Fire wall:
1D6/lvl for lvl/2 rounds...
So effectively 800 D6, 1,600 D6 vs undead....

-Overstatted. Needs downgrade.

Incendary cloud:
1D6/lvl for lvl rounds
So effectively 1,600 D6

-Overstatted. Needs downgrade.

Acid fog:
1D5/lvl for lvl/2 rounds
So effectively 800 D5

-Overstatted. Needs downgrade.

Either shorten their duration to say... 5 rounds max and keep their damage high to beat DI/DR, which i think is better, or drop their damage back to their low original values of 2D6+CL and have them "last days".


P.S. About Finger of Death:
"Note: This spell will have no effect on targets that are 2 or more CR levels higher than caster's total number of levels, or if the target has more than 1000HP at max, or is Journal Tied."

that's still on finger of death. Does that work by the spell doing nothing at all vs such a target, or does it have them auto pass the save and do the 40D6 (average 140 damage, 210 empowered, 240 if maximized as an arcane scholar only)? I've never used finger due to the fact that's unclear.

Lady Seline
Posts: 64

Re: SUGGESTION: Capping Spell Damage for Bosses

Post#22 » Sat Aug 03, 2019 9:45 am

Thinking about acid and fire clouds...

CL/2 D6 elemental on initial cast
4 subsequent rounds CL/4 elemental if they're still in them

Extend is budget empower (CL*1.5)
Empower is CL*1.5
Maximize is basicly CL*2

Sounds rather balanced, plus initial hit will help the spell vs DR foes.


Just read the commit logs. Looks like I've a fun 2880 MAX damage avascualte coming soon. Thanks everyone.
Using those free Rods of usefullness you all just bin for 100% immunity was too much effort I guess. Or just using darksteel legendary on your helmet instead of your weapon for once...
-sigh-

Brumm
Posts: 2242

Re: SUGGESTION: Capping Spell Damage for Bosses

Post#23 » Sat Aug 03, 2019 6:08 pm

The rule you are quoting about instant death spells not working on 1000HP+ is no longer valid. We changed the rule roughly a year ago but missed to update the description it seems. I'll do that soon.

Edit: Redarding the cloud spells being OP: You are right. Do you want them to be nerfed?

Fraggle
Posts: 162

Re: SUGGESTION: Capping Spell Damage for Bosses

Post#24 » Sun Aug 04, 2019 6:42 am

Please no Change on Cloud and Drownspells, Discussion gone to a really weird Direction. Major and biggest Problem is Avasculate, not the other Spells.
Question: Is that possible to Code Avasculates Damage tied to CL ( may 0.9 or 1 percent of current Hitpoints per CL ) and giving the Spell a Fortitude DC ? I.e. Successful Save Roll 0 effect, Save fail CL based Damage and a second Roll for Stun effect ( only when first Roll fails).
When Devstaff wanna protect their high HP Mobs/ Bosses Concept may its possible to give them Immu Necro?

Tom D
Posts: 19

Re: SUGGESTION: Capping Spell Damage for Bosses

Post#25 » Sun Aug 04, 2019 10:15 am

I keep wondering why limiting Avasculate doesn’t sit well with me. As I am thinking about it, Avasculate already has two caps - 50% and 9999 damage. It ranges in usefulness depending on the monster from worthless to incredibly useful.

We already have spells that are static damage. I like that this spell has certain uses and we have to be conscious of when we use it. In an event, for example I have to decide if this boss is worth it, or has Ant got a bigger badder boss waiting? Tactics. And it is not an automatic hit like say maximized IGMS. Depending on hit rate, 5 IGMS may do more damage than 5 Avasculates.

I get that for an event server run like abyss with preprogrammed mobs, it is pretty easy to run through as you get your tactics down. But the same is true for any class.

I guess I like the idea of:

Bee Patience, Careless Sorcerer and Darth Bane looked down the hill. There waiting for them was a Grimy Cube, surrounded by Minotaurs. “Careless” said Bee, “We are going to need one of those death ray things. You hit the cube and I will stun the minos. Darth, you keep my health up. Once the minos are down and the cube is wounded, we concentrate all fire on finishing the cube“.

A lot of conversation on both sides for something that happens less than 1% of the time, but that is what makes this server great :D

Lady Seline
Posts: 64

Re: SUGGESTION: Capping Spell Damage for Bosses

Post#26 » Sun Aug 04, 2019 11:35 am

Brumm wrote:The rule you are quoting about instant death spells not working on 1000HP+ is no longer valid. We changed the rule roughly a year ago but missed to update the description it seems. I'll do that soon.

Edit: Redarding the cloud spells being OP: You are right. Do you want them to be nerfed?


Ty, I was hoping it was a description thing. I'll maybe start using them.

And about the overcharged cloud spells... hell yes.
If the trentacle and blade wall could be scaled up maybe in damage a little even at expense of duration, or in tentacles case swapped to the same ER grapple scaling as the warlock version that'd be nice.

For those 800-1600D clouds, if they can be reduced in a manner that means they dont become non useable that'd be great. Referencing elemental DR. if they lasted 40 rounds but hit for 25 each round, theyll basically tick for 5-0 Hp a round vs something with DI/DR and be out regenned. I thought the compromise of 1/2 damage on initial cast, with a short duration moderate damage tick was my best idea for a counter / compromise.

As for the other cloud spells... the stun and -10 will save ones like cloud of biwilderment etc are fine. Since they're save or fail types their duration is not an issue.

Cloudkill does con damage, and is blocked by non-breathing immunity, posion immnity, death immunity, and ability damage immunity so will basicly bounce off any of the following:
Undead
Constructs
Elementals
Duergar
Druid level 9
Monk level 11
Doomguide level 10
Divine Caster with Death Ward buff or Arcane caster with Shadow Shield
So err... doesnt exactly need a nerf lol.

Finally... the only other spells that come to mind what are a bit funky are:

Sleep.
In The database 3 discriptors are listed;
"You cause 2d4 + 3 per caster level + 30 for each Epic Relevel attained HD of creatures to fall into a comatose slumber, beginning with those with the fewest HD."
and 2x
"You cause 4 + 1d4 HD of creatures to fall into a comatose slumber, beginning with those with the fewest HD. Creatures with 5 or more HD are unaffected."

The description of the one that gets added to the wizard spell book I believe is the latter. Which sleep spell should be the one used? Is it a discription error too?

Circle of Death.

"A wave of negative energy bursts from the target location. A number of enemy creatures equal to 1d6 per caster level must make a fortitude save or die, beginning with those with the lowest hit die. Creatures with 25 or more hit die are unaffected."

The 25hd cap means it basicly does nothing from 1/2 way through the campaign onwards. Can you think of a fair compromise to open the spell back up for use? I'm worried a mass death spell at L6 is a bit low, given banshee is L9 and finger of death is L7.. Maybe have it just deal CL based cold, magic or negative energy damage as a PBAoE and remove the HD limit? Cold would bounce off elemental immunity, negative off death ward and shadowshields.
Last edited by Lady Seline on Sun Aug 04, 2019 11:45 am, edited 1 time in total.

Lady Seline
Posts: 64

Re: SUGGESTION: Capping Spell Damage for Bosses

Post#27 » Sun Aug 04, 2019 11:41 am

Fraggle wrote:Please no Change on Cloud and Drownspells, Discussion gone to a really weird Direction. Major and biggest Problem is Avasculate, not the other Spells.


Nonsense! a 800D6 and a 1,600D6 spell is moronicly high and DEFINITLY needs nerfing. Thats maximized 9,600 damage! Way, way more than an avasculate, and thats BEFORE you give them elemental vulnerability with instil vulnerability.

Definitely nerf the heck out these 3 spells, and thats me saying it as an arcane player!

I seriously think if you give them a high initial damage to punch through DR/DI and then a more moderate short duration tick the spells would still do the persitent damage people like, for 30 secs say or 1 minute extended, but the map would be far less clogged with redundant clouds messing up LOS for melees.

Tentacles, blade barriers, and so on do need a little nudge up though to deal with high immunities, even if just int he form of ER scaling.

Fraggle
Posts: 162

Re: SUGGESTION: Capping Spell Damage for Bosses

Post#28 » Sun Aug 04, 2019 12:31 pm

Aha, Nonsens from a Player who has exactly 0 Toons which can solo and analyze Eventsrever, so 0 Experience with anything on Eventserver and is convinced about balancing a Spell with Special Math like 800d6 -1600D6. Really interesting Numbers you find.

konst3d
Posts: 621

Re: SUGGESTION: Capping Spell Damage for Bosses

Post#29 » Mon Aug 05, 2019 2:58 am

Lady Seline wrote:Damn right I'm ranty. I'm getting fed up of people going on about casters being OP, blah blah blah, when I litterally watch an entire party outlive me, and out damage me every Friday. I watch combat damage numbers float up 6 or seven times per person per round continuously with 250+ then watch my spells land and a nice big fat string of zeros float up from a maximized missile storm, I'll then cast an empowered chain lightning and watch it land for a little under 300, or I cast a L9 spell and watch a big fat nothing occur at all since its a save and beat SR or fail.. I litterally feel like a waste of space until I find one of the few mobs not immune to avasculate like the cubes and finally, after an hour of inadequacy I see a once off 6980 float up... and the second cast less than 2K.

Problem is - you are trying to judge things after playing RP character. Ask KC for a good arcane build, also for spell selection\usage advise. And you will see why people are asking for nerfing arcanes. :)
Magic is impressive, but now Minsc leads! Swords for everyone!

kc2345
Posts: 698

Re: SUGGESTION: Capping Spell Damage for Bosses

Post#30 » Wed Aug 07, 2019 6:56 pm

On live, Avasculate is now capped at 60/CL as intended. It still remains the best spell in an Arcane caster's arsenal vs mobs with 3,000+ HP.

However, Drowns also got hit with an identical cap of 60/CL. This is actually a more severe downgrade as a max CL (Mass) Drown damage caps vs a 3.3k HP mob while Avasculate only caps vs a 6k HP mob.

I beleive a cap of 100/CL for Drowns would be more in line, as this caps the spells vs a 5.56k HP mob instead.
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