SUGGESTION: Capping Spell Damage for Bosses

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konst3d
Posts: 615

Re: SUGGESTION: Capping Spell Damage for Bosses

Post#11 » Thu Aug 01, 2019 8:25 am

Agreed, things like avasculate\drown (mass) should have a cap. Otherwise AQ casters become too far away damage wise from anybody else.
Magic is impressive, but now Minsc leads! Swords for everyone!

Tom D
Posts: 17

Re: SUGGESTION: Capping Spell Damage for Bosses

Post#12 » Fri Aug 02, 2019 12:32 am

Before we go limiting arcanes, can we take a minute and consider that very few people play arcanes? Either in events or just among friends. Limiting their spell power will further limit people playing them and I think we want more class variety, not less. Feels like we have 1 or 2 arcanes eaxh week in a group of 14-16.

I was talking to some new players and they said that things like avasculate and drown help them when they don't have all the set pieces that the veterans have, which was something I hadn't considered.

Personally, I kind of like the idea that “wizards” are powerful. Every story has the rare and powerful wizard that can do things beyond mortal men.

This feels like something that should be down the list.

konst3d
Posts: 615

Re: SUGGESTION: Capping Spell Damage for Bosses

Post#13 » Fri Aug 02, 2019 1:57 am

The only reason why I don't play my sorcerer - everything becomes too easy. Spam spells, don't care theirs AC, saves, HP pool, anything... No challenge\boring.
Magic is impressive, but now Minsc leads! Swords for everyone!

kc2345
Posts: 676

Re: SUGGESTION: Capping Spell Damage for Bosses

Post#14 » Fri Aug 02, 2019 7:15 am

@TomD

I do understand your view. However, do consider the particulars of the proposed change.

A cap of 50/90 per CL is extremely generous already, considering that direct damage spells typically do only 8-15 damage per caster level maximized. For all practical purposes, arcanes and shamans levelling on content should experience no damage loss whatsoever except perhaps against high EX Tough mobs.

The idea behind this proposal is to reduce cheesing boss content, especially in higher EX group content where difficulty becomes very binary depending on access to Avasculate.

Being able to do up to 9,999 damage per spell, twice per round with no save regardless of your caster level is not only far beyond the capabilities of any weapon user, it's far beyond any other spell in an arcanist caster's arsenal. As mentioned before, RTA and SR are not adequate reasons to leave it as-is. If SR and RTA were removed, and a Fort save to negate damage was added to Avasculate, it would be a much weaker spell. The argument that the spell is not as imbalanced vs weaker enemies is fair, and the proposal does not hinder that in any fashion. Instead, it aims to curb excessive damage vs mobs intended for group play.

Even with the proposed change, Avasculate remains a Premier spell vs high HP mobs (2,500 dmg twice per round remains above even what a set stacker rogue can achieve), but is not so much higher as to be absurd.

With regards to not seeing many casters around, in my opinion, a huge part of it stems from their autoquicken based quadratic power scaling from the low 30s to 40. A sub 30 or ER caster is very weak as they only cast one spell a round, and a lot of players lose interest as they spend a lot of time there. Once autoquickens kick in however, casters can double a bigger and bigger proportion of their spell output, all the while still having their damage per spell continuously rising with level gain. This is an issue with the design of the ROT level 40 system, and would likely not be addressable in any way with this proposed change.
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Tom D
Posts: 17

Re: SUGGESTION: Capping Spell Damage for Bosses

Post#15 » Fri Aug 02, 2019 11:38 am

Fair points konstd and kc. Thanks for posting them.

I guess fundamentally it will affect very little - ex event bosses, cubes, etc., but I just don’t see the pressing need. Why does the arcane spell on bosses have to equal the melee’s average damage?

I get that the driving reason is that boss fights should tougher and avasculate is sort of a “cheat code”? Ok, but as has been posted elsewhere, tougher boss fights should have better loot. Reward should equal risk. We are making the fight harder first. Maybe we should fix the boss loot issue first?

If ex Vrac gives me one more A rune... :D

Lady Seline
Posts: 62

Re: SUGGESTION: Capping Spell Damage for Bosses

Post#16 » Fri Aug 02, 2019 1:07 pm

konst3d wrote:Agreed, things like avasculate\drown (mass) should have a cap. Otherwise AQ casters become too far away damage wise from anybody else.

They have a cap. its called 50% CURRENT hp.

Its not like a spear user has an attack that does 15% MAX HP (not current hp) that can be spammed every other round for 15% that will do more dama... oh wait!

But seriously, why are you complaining that your party memebrs are making a 1 hr long possibly party wiping death fight quicker than it would be? If you want, I'll stop beinging my necromancer, and bring a cleric with searing light spam. I'm sure you sitting on your asses for that extra 20 minutes, the healer running out of spells and having to fork out for potions of rest and waste of shards ressing yourselves will totally be worth it.

Drown needs balancing because its OP for its spell lvl, mass version shouldn't even exist, and NPCs cast it at you.
Avasculate doesnt. Keep complaining, and I'll remove my ONLY effective spell available to me and memorise instead 8 fingers of death for 168 damage apiece. You can enjoy your lovely long fight then. And I'll enjoy doing 1/2-3/4 the damage of 1 hit out of the 12 you get to dish out in melee every round in each of my rounds 8 times a day instead. I'll then TP away behind a column, hide and go afk for 30 mins for you to finish since said bosses have already eaten ALL my IGMS and flame arrows which it usually immune to or takes at best 50% damage from and I've nothing left to cast.

Lady Seline
Posts: 62

Re: SUGGESTION: Capping Spell Damage for Bosses

Post#17 » Fri Aug 02, 2019 8:53 pm

You know what... forget that. instead cap the damage. Go on.

Afterwards we can give ALL casting classes a high BAB progression, full martial weapon proficiency for free, 1d10 HD minimum, a set damage bonus of 8D12 on all sets, and an ability to add their casting attribute to melee damage instead of Str they will not have, and remove all +spell slots of all gear. Then its fair for everyone, as people will no longer be able to play these OP classes with their unfair advantages of 1/3 HP and inability to use any weapons for their ability to output more damage for a feeble investment of ONLY 19 feats, or less damage with 6.

Brownyman
Posts: 252

Re: SUGGESTION: Capping Spell Damage for Bosses

Post#18 » Sat Aug 03, 2019 3:38 am

@Lady Seline

I'm trying to figure out which side of the fence you are on over these spells because it just seems to come across as a rant about everything in general!

Avasculate is no save potentially 9,999hp.

Mass Drown has a Fort save, enemies that i consider potential party wipers are Eon Sculpters. they have a massively inflated caster lvl and DC so its a hard place. Simply put, if you have crap saves or slow reactions to being hit, you are done.

A lot of the areas are like that, Tough!

As a player Mass drown on enemies is good for grinding cannibals while levelling, amd hitting a couple of bosses in Abyss. higher EX = Higher saves and rarely works massively on event mobs. But i have no problem with a damage cap, sounds pretty fair in my opinion. there are always spells which work, just means maybe a slower way of killing.

What if avasculate had a Fort save, make the save no damage! would you be happy with a no damage cap nerf?
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Brownyman
Posts: 252

Re: SUGGESTION: Capping Spell Damage for Bosses

Post#19 » Sat Aug 03, 2019 3:41 am

@Lady seline,

This isnt a personal attack on you, just my thoughts from playing mainly nature casters for ages! Comparisons between mass drown and avasculate arent really fair :?
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Sergoros
Posts: 93

Re: SUGGESTION: Capping Spell Damage for Bosses

Post#20 » Sat Aug 03, 2019 4:33 am

What I always hated in 1 mmo I played, is that my class was always weaker in most aspects than other classes, but it had one thing that is only useful in big groups and sometimes can be game changing. Every time my class complained about being weak, it was always beaten down with the answer of: BUT YOU HAVE THIS ONE THING THAT IS SO OP...sometimes...in rare events...that you might not even participate in.

In ideal world, it would be just better to remove these op spells and properly balance the rest of arcane spells, so that arcanes would actually be what they are supposed to be. Insane burst damage (way higher than other classes), but run out of spells quickly.

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