Class balancing program - Thug

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addict-ant
Posts: 628

Class balancing program - Thug

Post#1 » Wed Jul 11, 2018 12:41 pm

A little later than planned but if anyone has ideas to improve Thugs, this is the place to be posting.

As I understand (and i have not played a thug), the main issues are AB and DC on Browbeat but do correct me if I'm wrong

Edit - my apologies for getting the sequence of classes wrong; it was meant to be Swash, Thug then Monk :oops:

Edit 2 - well done Fraggle, i had completely mangled that with Hexblade *hangs head* - definitely meant to be Thug. Post amended accordingly.
Last edited by addict-ant on Wed Jul 11, 2018 1:26 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Fraggle
Posts: 126

Re: Class balancing program - Thug

Post#2 » Wed Jul 11, 2018 1:02 pm

Hello, you mean Thug or Hex ?

For Thugs :
- Crippling Strike as Class Feature ( maybe at lvl 4 - 10 )
- small AB Boost maybe Thug lvl/ 8

Think Zan has most experience with Thug and hope he will post here.

Valariax
Posts: 421

Re: Class balancing program - Thug

Post#3 » Thu Jul 12, 2018 1:18 am

Fraggle wrote:- Crippling Strike as Class Feature ( maybe at lvl 4 - 10 )

If Thug is to get access to Crippling Strike (and I agree it is plausible to do so), then I think it should be higher than lvl 10 (I recommend lvls 15 or 17). Here's my reasoning:

Currently only Rogue and Dark Lantern have access to Crippling Strike, so it's relatively exclusive:
- Rogue at lvl 10+ (it's a Rogue Special Ability selectable class feat available as a bonus at lvls 10/13/16/19).
- Dark Lanterns have access to the Crippling Strike feat as long as they have at least 4d6 dice of the real sneak attack.
- Also, getting Crippling Strike is the only way to access Epic Precision (at lvl 21+), so it's a big deal to sneak attackers.

So, pure Rogues can't get Crippling Strike before lvl 10. If you want it before lvl 10, multiclassers with Dark Lantern can get Crippling Strike as low as lvl 9, including Thug/DL (Crippling Strike has to be chosen on a feat-granting level when DL is selected).

Looking at the RoT Custom Thug level progression, there are open lvls at 11, 15, 17 and 19. I think lvl 11 is still too early because of Rogue 10 or a lvl 9 XX/DL. So to me, lvls 15 or 17 seem optimum for granting Crippling Strike (I wouldn't object to lvl 19 either), since this won't badly nerf previous builds that got it earlier through Rogue 10 or a Dark Lantern dip, and it should encourage commitment to the Thug class (which is why we're trying to "balance" the Thug class anyway).
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fox
Posts: 121

Re: Class balancing program - Thug

Post#4 » Thu Jul 12, 2018 1:44 am

CS is available to rogue @6 via feat selection or granted auto @10
IMO thugs dont get CS, they have browbeat, rely more on cha like also feint.
Balancing shouldn't mean blending..

Zan
Posts: 86

Re: Class balancing program - Thug

Post#5 » Thu Jul 12, 2018 3:41 am

What about this way.....I expect, people will have some suggestions for dex, str or char way. browbeat and feint are weak now. But feint is power, but after chapter2.4 is usless, tested it. Browbeat-before was good, but now I dont use it, almost everybody has immunity.
Thug level
5 AB 2, 10%concealment
10 crippling strike
11 skil focus open, dis, search, set trap
15 20% concealment
20 uncanny dodge
25 30% concealment
30 trapfinding
31 epic skill focus ope, dis, search, set trap
35 40% concealment, AB bonus thug levels/4. This bonus stack with AB from 5level
36 master of low blow. Low blow get extra bonus for DC int or char mod max 1o or 15 or dex mod x1.5. Low blow has dex mod, but as master of low blow you will have better bonus from dex.
37 hardly visible damage..damage for small and tiny weapon from dex modx2. Range weaponx3
....plus thinking hips instead concealment.
Agree get crippling strike on higher level.

Fraggle
Posts: 126

Re: Class balancing program - Thug

Post#6 » Thu Jul 12, 2018 4:24 am

@ Valariax and Zan, for me is main target to give Thug Crippling Strike, at which lvl is not so important for Thug Class itself. For sure at Thug lvl 11, 13 or 15 has some logics. Crippling Strike for Thugs at earlier lvl ( like 4-6 ) would make Thug Class interesting for Dipping other Builds ( i know the Requirments of 4 D6 real Sneak Attack ).
Actual i.e. lvl 9 DL is a good way to destroy your AB ( even with a DP Caster Class ).

General it would higher flexibilty to give Thugs Crippling Strike or HIPS, at which lvl ever. Both is to much.

@ Zan, sry Buddy this is much to much. 36 lvl Thug would get now +11 AB and 40 percent Conceal. No high BAB Class exist, which get so many +AB. My opinion stays, AB Bonus Thug/8 is more than enough especially when you dont must Dip build with DL. General Conceal feels to much too. Uncanny Dodge, Crippling Strike and small AB Boost feels more than enough to make Thugs decent ( probably they need help by more DC for their Special attacks ).

kc2345
Posts: 621

Re: Class balancing program - Thug

Post#7 » Thu Jul 12, 2018 6:13 am

I think introducing a new Practiced Thuggery feat that works a lot like the Practiced Caster line of feats would be nice.

This feat would add +4 Levels to determine the DCs of your Thug special abilities up to the limit of your HD.
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Fraggle
Posts: 126

Re: Class balancing program - Thug

Post#8 » Thu Jul 12, 2018 6:28 am

I like the Idea of Practized Thuggery!
Similar Feature could help Hexblade too.

Zan
Posts: 86

Re: Class balancing program - Thug

Post#9 » Thu Jul 12, 2018 11:55 am

Thug's power is sneak and now +12 base abilities. Low blow {hmmm, maybe one reason why to take thug, if you like sneaky fight ;) } is nice, but you need high dex and thug levels for successful LB.
If you stop enemy, then is problem to kill it, because thug doesnt have extra feats for raise AB and you have more miss than hit and enemy has mostly regeneration, you have problem kill it.
Long time ago I wrote plus AB for some rounds after using LB.
Higher DC..I remember, than somebody wanted to change legendary forge {dont remember which material and item}. Can use legendary for increase DC ability/spell from feat, but I dont know how many feats are in game and if it is ok :?:
Ok, I wrote too many....epic feats and concealment and everything can be on lower levels, but crippling be leave it on 10th level. I am not sure if we get it on 4th level. maybe we get epic precision earlier than crippling strike on low level :D .

addict-ant
Posts: 628

Re: Class balancing program - Thug

Post#10 » Tue Jul 31, 2018 1:02 pm

Anyone want to add anything more to the Thug discussion?

I have to admit i'm not very keen on giving crippling strike - am i firmly in the minority?
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