Class balancing program - Monk

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addict-ant
Posts: 628

Class balancing program - Monk

Post#1 » Sun Jul 01, 2018 10:56 am

This is one where I could definitely use a little help; having never played a monk to any great degree I don't have the greatest insight into the class. I know there have been a great many posts about improving the monk but they were all before the set changes we know now and frankly it would be useful to see what everyone thinks at this time, in one place.

So if anyone has some ideas on how to improve the Monk class please post below.

P.S. I intend to knock one of these posts out every week for each class and get a glowing roster of changes (God bless Brian for coding them up - and sorry for all the Greek speak ;) )
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Samyx
Posts: 655

Re: Class balancing program - Monk

Post#2 » Sun Jul 01, 2018 1:06 pm

Well, the amulet AB buff anc conceal are quick fixes, they help the class the be playable, but won't make it shine.

At the risk of repeating what is on the forum since years, what could be benefit for monks is
- A reason to go beyond 20 (or 1)
- Something to feed that feat starving
- Something to give it "edge" over the other classes. Not being better or similar in all ways, but "different".

So... you want to play a PTWF toon, why play monk while you can rogue or fighter ? So I intentionnaly disregard that.

Proposals :

1/ Monk class
-----------------
Give uncanny dodge at level 16. Don't tell me monks can't dodge

Beyond level 12 : Monks are now full BAB

Level 16 : Monks get Weapon focus Shurkin/quarterstaff/unarmed/kama and weapon specialization for the same

Beyond level 20 : Monks get 1 free feat per 3 levels instead of 5

Level 22 : Monks get Epic flurry : Another attack
Level 24 : Monks get Greater Weapon focus Shurkin/quarterstaff/unarmed/kama and Greater weapon specialization for the same
Level 28 : Monks get Epic Weapon focus Shurkin/quarterstaff/unarmed/kama and Epic weapon specialization for the same

Level 32 : Monks get Perfect flurry : Another attack


2/ Monk set
---------------

Add Sacred fist and Fist of the forest as full monk level for the sake of set levels

bsb5652
Site Admin
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Re: Class balancing program - Monk

Post#3 » Mon Jul 02, 2018 7:17 am

I really like your proposal. Very to the point, actionable, and makes a lot of sense.
Brian Bloom

Realms of Trinity Executive Producer & Game Creator
http://www.realmsoftrinity.com

Chemic_al
Posts: 96

Re: Class balancing program - Monk

Post#4 » Tue Jul 03, 2018 5:39 pm

Samyx wrote:Well, the amulet AB buff anc conceal are quick fixes, they help the class the be playable, but won't make it shine.

At the risk of repeating what is on the forum since years, what could be benefit for monks is
- A reason to go beyond 20 (or 1)
- Something to feed that feat starving
- Something to give it "edge" over the other classes. Not being better or similar in all ways, but "different".

So... you want to play a PTWF toon, why play monk while you can rogue or fighter ? So I intentionnaly disregard that.

Proposals :

1/ Monk class
-----------------
Give uncanny dodge at level 16. Don't tell me monks can't dodge


Level 4 like rogue seems far more reasonable to me.

Beyond level 12 : Monks are now full BAB
Beyond level 20 : Monks get 1 free feat per 3 levels instead of 5


Ok...fair enough

Level 16 : Monks get Weapon focus Shurkin/quarterstaff/unarmed/kama and weapon specialization for the same
Level 24 : Monks get Greater Weapon focus Shurkin/quarterstaff/unarmed/kama and Greater weapon specialization for the same
Level 28 : Monks get Epic Weapon focus Shurkin/quarterstaff/unarmed/kama and Epic weapon specialization for the same


No. I hate taking other classes abilities away from them.
I'd say handle this a bit like marksman did for ranger, do a prc say Master of The North, that counts towards set for damage scaling, but doesn't progress the other stuff that's hardcoded like monk speed/ac/fist damage, but give it DR and/ or free improved SR feats as something to compensate for the different weapon focused style.

Level 22 : Monks get Epic flurry : Another attack
Level 32 : Monks get Perfect flurry : Another attack


Isn't the issue that monk attacks are already capping out. how does more attacks they can't have help?

And the core issue, is that the class gets zero help in the damage department is still there.

Make stunning fist add a ton of damage - Something akin to finishing stroke for rogues. They need it or this work will be in vain.

2/ Monk set
---------------

Add Sacred fist and Fist of the forest as full monk level for the sake of set levels


Definitely.

Also, make Sacred Fist a 24 level class like Eldritch Knight. Probably do a sacred fist set with spell slots on...
Give them something to compensate stat wise and damage wise for missing 2 weapons...

Lastly, a daring outlaw type feat for monk/rogues.

Chemic_al
Posts: 96

Re: Class balancing program - Monk

Post#5 » Wed Jul 04, 2018 8:25 am

Further thoughts, let's try to be imaginative and make use of monk abilities rather than copying other classes' ;)

1) Turn Stunning Fist into a use pool for cool stuff much like turn undead for div might etc....

Monk 21/Sacred Fist 10/Epic - Epic Deflection.

Use Stunning Fist to give yourself 100% conceal to ranged for Wis mod rounds.

2) beef up existing stuff

Fiery Fist - 1d6 per ER, but unresistable damage so it's actually useful (same for Sacred Fist, sacred flames)
Blazing Aura on same lines.

both giving more if monk is in epic levels

3) Knockdown, give monks an AoE knockdown using a stunning fist attempt, similar to quake shot but based off Wisdom

With regards to high BAB past 12, I'm still thinking that should be handled with a PRC for weapon feats, and the monk set should give a passive AB boost with levels but based off pure monk levels so the PRC doesn't benefit so much since they took a different path so to speak but either way there is an incentive to stay with monk or prc out for fighter feats.

Anyway, just some ideas to give monks some love and diversity.

Fraggle
Posts: 126

Re: Class balancing program - Monk

Post#6 » Wed Jul 04, 2018 3:44 pm

Some interesting Ideas.

Not sure if i understand the Math for, beyond lvl 12 full BAB Progression and the extra Attack Feats.
A 36 BAB Build hits the Engine Hard Cap of 18 Attacks per round, so whats the benefit of the new extra Attack Feats ?

Samyx
Posts: 655

Re: Class balancing program - Monk

Post#7 » Wed Jul 04, 2018 3:57 pm

Please read more carefully my post and you will see that the extra attacks (epic flurry/perfect flurry) are required for non-PTWF users, as I do not care about PTWFers. PTWF can play other toons also, but flurryers are stuck with +2 attacks which is nice at level 20, but at level 40 this is not good, as PTWFers can reach 17 or 18.
SO the goal of this is to reach up to 12 attacks or 14 attacks (I seem to have found a circle kick bug ?) for unarmed/shurikens/quarterstaff.

Fraggle
Posts: 126

Re: Class balancing program - Monk

Post#8 » Thu Jul 05, 2018 2:23 pm

Apologize Samyx, youre right, didnt read carefully, as readed yesterday a lots Posts.

Evne your suggestions wouldnt be enough to make unarmed doable ( no Idea how the Monk Shurican thing works ). Last time i played Monk was in NWN 1, my knowledge is low for specific Monk Feats. Made yesterday few quick tests and was i.e. surprised that unarmed isnt automatic TWF and even dont work together with TWF Line. Feels illlogical for me, as you would use both Fists.

I think to make unarmed doable, it feels it needs a complete new stragedy!

addict-ant
Posts: 628

Re: Class balancing program - Monk

Post#9 » Wed Jul 11, 2018 12:37 pm

Thanks to all for your ideas. Anyone else wanting to add something to this discussion?

@Chemic-Al - i fear creating a whole new PrC (or a whole new set for one) is too much to ask with regard to Dev time/effort. Is your idea for the Fiery Fist a part of the 'Stunning Fist use pool' you're thinking?

I do wonder if unarmed combat (at least for Monks) could be made to be two weapon fighting? It doesn't fit well with me that this is considered single weapon fighting by the game (though trying to alter this may be too big an ask).
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Fraggle
Posts: 126

Re: Class balancing program - Monk

Post#10 » Wed Jul 11, 2018 1:18 pm

My experience with Monk is very low too, so ill try to be very careful with suggestions, made few test with Monk some days ago.

@ Chemical for 100 percent Conceal vs ranged you can simple use Storm Avatar Scrolls like other Classes.

Is it possible to create Special Gauntlets which you can equip at both Weapon Slots, would make them working then with TWF path ( hopefully with FoB too ), to repair the Fist Fighting ?

Question to the Players with Monk experience, how works the Shuricans, count they as ranged, so with Manyshot Line ?

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