Class balancing program - Swashbuckler

[addict-ant]

There's been a lot of talk staff side about what we do with with our limited resources. I would of course like us to move forward with the spell rewrite but that is a big project and i think there are more important things to be resolving before committing further resources there. I've asked Brian and Brumm to look into the Paladin and Blackguard sets as a matter of some urgency (their bonuses aren't firing properly, i suspect to do with the shield AC as these are the only 2 sets that give shield ac and have a caveat that the shield must be present; this is where i think the problem lies).

In the mean time we think it's a good idea to start codifying exactly what we need to do to give weaker classes (and possibly their sets where applicable) a boost. We of course have our ideas staff side but we very much want and need input from players as well. I think it best if we focus on one class at a time and I've chosen Swashbuckler to be the first, with a view to moving onto others in quick succession. My ideas are below and I'd very much like everyone to post their ideas on how to improve this, currently lacklustre, class:

Add Perform as a class skill
Level 9 - bonus feat - evasion
Level 12 - bonus feat - uncanny dodge
Level 15 - bonus feat - improved evasion
Level 21 - bonus feat - improved uncanny dodge

[Fraggle]

I remember when i tested the Swash/Thugset, how weak Swashbuckler felt.

I vote definitv for Evasion and uncanny Dodge, as it has some logic from RP view too. Doubts about Impro Evasion ( Runeword exist ) and Impro Uncanny Dodge ( is it essential? ).

Think, when there is no way for small AB Boost, maybe its worth to give Class real AC progression not Swash Dodge ( as it only works vs current attacker/target ).

DR and/or a bit Concealment although worth to think about.

Crippling Strike is interesting too.

This are only few thoughts and need careful balancing with planned Set too.

[bsb5652]

I am working on the Thug/Swash set as we speak to get it fully implemented. It was very close, and I believe we were just down to bug fixing and effect tweaking, etc. I want to have it fully ready for roll out by 6/30.

[kc2345]

Perhaps Defensive Roll?

That way, a Dex-based Swash can take epic dodge without having to dip around.

Other than that, perhaps replace swash dodge with 10% conceal per AC, with a maximum of 50% conceal at 25 swashbuckler levels?

In this way, swashes have really powerful defense, but make up for that by not being terrific at doing damage, and lacking the skill-based abilities of a Rogue.

In contrast, fighters have effectively +6 AB (EWF + Weapon Mastery + Supremacy), Weapon Specialization, and a way easier time building EDM Str + Cha for maximum damage.

Crippling strike would be good too, as epic precision prevents their Insightful Strike being negated by a large number of mobs.

The other classes that could do looking at:
1) Monks (long thread about them somewhere)
2) Scouts (nobody really plays one )
3) Hexblades
4) Warlocks (a lot of work needs to be done with their spells unfortunately)

I think the Paladin and Ranger as classes are fine (except maybe give rangers full CL progression). They just don't have the gear options of Fighter/Rogue/Barbarian classes.

[Zan]

For Swash uncanny dodge and crippling strike.
Improved evasion, but it should be too much. I agree to take different classes with feats, but swash is main dex and int warrior, he should be have main feats bound to dex and int.

[bsb5652]

For the record, we will hit Swash, then thug, then monk in that order. I am rolling out monk set item updates in a few days, and by the time they get a little feedback from those changes, we'll know how to adjust the core class better.

[Samyx]

Perhaps Defensive Roll?

That way, a Dex-based Swash can take epic dodge without having to dip around.

+ 1 !

Swashies are expected to evade & dodge.

My vote is for :
Level 10 - bonus feat - Evasion
Level 13 - bonus feat - Uncanny dodge
Level 16 - bonus feat - Defensive roll

So those are powerful feats, but that means heavy investment in the class.

[Chemic_al]

Crippling strike would be good too, as epic precision prevents their Insightful Strike being negated by a large number of mobs.

So 3 levels of rogue and you've got high bab sneak attack + all rogue goodies? There's no reason to take more than 3 levels of rogue if they had this as well.
They've got their own version anyway level 14&19.

If they want crippling strike they ought to get it another way like rogue 10, or dark lantern dip.

I think the Paladin and Ranger as classes are fine (except maybe give rangers full CL progression). They just don't have the gear options of Fighter/Rogue/Barbarian classes.

Pure Paladin could do with full caster progression? They don't get alot outside of AB spells (divine favour, prayer and aid - no mass) and no recitation.

[kc2345]

I've seen the beta Thug/Swash set, and it's good, but nowhere near as strong as the Rogue set. In fact, the passive AB bonus from the rogue set means the power levels likely go: Set Rogue > Set Swash > non Set Swash > non Set Rogue.

Even with crippling strike/epic prescision and rogue sneak progression (daring outlaw), the swash build lacks opportunist (from 4 to 6 precise/deadly strikes per activation), has far less skill points, and won't benefit from Rogue skill mastery.

Paladins are already a full CL class on ROT AFAIK.

[Chemic_al]

I've seen the beta Thug/Swash set, and it's good, but nowhere near as strong as the Rogue set. In fact, the passive AB bonus from the rogue set means the power levels likely go: Set Rogue > Set Swash > non Set Swash > non Set Rogue.

A quite long winded way of saying what we already know and isn't disputed by anyone - the rogue set is very good.

Even with crippling strike/epic prescision and rogue sneak progression (daring outlaw), the swash build lacks opportunist (from 4 to 6 precise/deadly strikes per activation), has far less skill points, and won't benefit from Rogue skill mastery.

The sort of thing 10 rogue levels gets you? Yeah, should remain that way.

Swashies will have high Int, almost certainly 3 rogue levels and able learner takes care of the rest.

Do Duelist levels count as swashbuckler?