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COMPLETED - Stormsinger Class Updates and Set Items Developement Started

Posted: Mon Sep 07, 2020 5:39 pm
by bsb5652
Changes are well in flight to overhaul the Stormsinger class and the set items that will go along with it. The set items will also work with Stormlord. More details to come.

Re: Stormsinger Class Updates and Set Items Developement Started

Posted: Tue Sep 08, 2020 6:59 am
by kc2345
Hi Brian,

I've tested Stormsinger on Beta and have made the following general observations:

1) Stormsong (Call Lightning) DC is still not working. Other Stormsong DCs are working as intended.
2) The Stormsongs all do too little damage (<200 at max CL) with the exception of Storm of Vengeance, which does too much damage (383 acid and potential for additional 383 electrical damage per round). I think the static ER component of the damage should go as well, to match spells. I have suggested some alternative formula and mechanics below.
3) Too much overlap between Winter's Ballad and Call Lightning stormsongs (this is a design flaw with the base class). They are essentially the same.
4) Description of CL can be shortened to - "Your caster level for Stormsongs is equal to 4 times your Stormsinger level, capped by your character level. You receive a 5% bonus to caster level per ER."
5) I think the minimum bard song level requirement for Stormsongs should be removed to allow for more flexibility in building a Stormsinger. A higher bardsong level still confers advantages in terms of more potent inspirations and more bardsong uses/day anyway.

Stormsong-Specific Suggestions:
1) Stormsong (Thunderstrike)
Range : 25' + 5'/2 levels
Target/Area : Target Creature
Duration : Instantaneous
Save: Fortitude partial (see text)
Spell Resistance: No

The DC of this stormsong is equal to 10 + 2/ER + ChaMod + stormsinger Level + Perform Skill / 5.
Your caster level for stormsongs is equal to 4 times your stormsinger level, capped by your character level. You receive a 5% bonus to caster level per ER.

At 3rd level, a stormsinger can use bardic music to unleash a deadly thunderbolt. The bolt can be targeted at any one creature, and the stormsinger must make a successful ranged touch attack to hit the target. If she hits, the stormsinger then deals 1d10 electrical damage and 1d10 sonic damage per caster level. If the creature fails its Fortitude save, it is deafened for 10 rounds. (//projected to do 275 electrical + 275 sonic at max CL)

2) Stormsong (Great Thunderstrike)
Range : 25' + 5'/2 levels
Target/Area : Target Creature
Duration : Instantaneous
Save: Fortitude partial (see text)
Spell Resistance: No

The DC of this stormsong is equal to 10 + 2/ER + ChaMod + stormsinger Level + Perform Skill / 5.
Your caster level for stormsongs is equal to 4 times your stormsinger level, capped by your character level. You receive a 5% bonus to caster level per ER.

At 9th level, a stormsinger can use bardic music to unleash a terrible stroke of lightning, followed by a deafening clap of thunder. The stormsong can be targeted at any one creature, and the stormsinger must make a successful ranged touch attack to hit the target. If she hits, the stormsinger then deals 1d12 electrical damage and 1d12 sonic damage per caster level. If the creature fails its Fortitude save, it is stunned for 3 rounds and deafened for 10 rounds.

This potent ability is quite exhausting to use; each time it is activated, the stormsinger uses two of her bardic music uses for the day. (//projected to do 325 electrical and 325 sonic at max CL)

2) Stormsong (Call Lightning)
Range : Personal
Target/Area : Huge
Duration : Instantaneous
Save: Reflex 1/2
Spell resistance : Yes

The DC of this stormsong is equal to 10 + 2/ER + ChaMod + stormsinger Level + Perform Skill / 5.
Your caster level for stormsongs is equal to 4 times your stormsinger level, capped by your character level. You receive a 5% bonus to caster level per ER.

A stormsinger of 5th level or higher can use bardic music to generate a Call Lightning effect, similar to the spell of the same name. This stormsong smites an area around the caster with bolts of lightning which strike all enemies. The bolts do 1d20 points of electrical damage per caster level. (//projected to do 525 electric at max CL)

3) Stormsong (Winter's Ballard)
Range: Long
Area of Effect / Target: Colossal, 1 Target / Level
Duration: Instant
Save: Reflex 1/2
Spell Resistance: Yes

The DC of this stormsong is equal to 10 + 2/ER + ChaMod + stormsinger Level + Perform Skill / 5.
Your caster level for stormsongs is equal to 4 times your stormsinger level, capped by your character level. You receive a 5% bonus to caster level per ER.

A stormsinger of 7th level or higher can use bardic music to generate a Chain Lightning, similar to the spell of the same name. This stormsong arcs a bolt of electricity through the caster's enemies for 2d16 points of electrical damage per caster level to the initial target and half that amount to all secondary targets. (//projected to do 850 on primary and 425 on secondary targets at max CL)

4) Stormsong (Song of Vengeance)
Range : Long
Target/Area : Colossal
Duration : 60 seconds
Save : Reflex Special
Spell Resistance: No

The DC of this stormsong is equal to 10 + 2/ER + ChaMod + stormsinger Level + Perform Skill / 5.
Your caster level for stormsongs is equal to 4 times your stormsinger level, capped by your character level. You receive a 5% bonus to caster level per ER.

At 10th level, a stormsinger can use bardic music to cause a storm of vengeance, similar to the spell of the same name. The area around the stormsinger is blasted by lightning and acidic rain. Each round, all enemies within the area of effect take 1d4 acid damage per caster level and must roll a reflex save to avoid additional effects.

Enemies who fail the reflex save take an additional 1d4 electrical damage per caster level and are stunned for two rounds. (//projected to do 125 acid with the potential for an additional 125 electrical per round at max CL)

This potent ability is quite exhausting to use; each time it is activated, the stormsinger uses four of her bardic music uses for the day.

5) Stormsong (Gust of Wind)
Range: Medium
Area of Effect / Target: Huge
Duration: Instant
Save: Fortitude negates
Spell Resistance: Yes

The DC of this stormsong is equal to 10 + 2/ER + ChaMod + stormsinger Level + Perform Skill / 5.
Your caster level for stormsongs is equal to 4 times your stormsinger level, capped by your character level. You receive a 5% bonus to caster level per ER.

A stormsinger of 1st level can use bardic music to generate a gust of wind, as the spell of the same name. This stormsong creates a blast of air that knocks down any creatures failing their saving throws. It is also powerful enough to disperse any area of effect spells (such as cloudkill) that are in the path of the wind gust.

Re: Stormsinger Class Updates and Set Items Developement Started

Posted: Tue Sep 08, 2020 7:12 am
by bsb5652
All static ER damage was removed and will work on the other items.

Re: Stormsinger Class Updates and Set Items Developement Started

Posted: Tue Sep 08, 2020 8:14 am
by Samyx
Hello

Could we push for much more damage on this PRC ? what's the point of taking it if spells do about the same damage than the standard spells ? Moreover removing the static ER damage forces the caster to be max cl to hope for some effect, while originally the class would have done damage whatever the CL.

But now it would cost bard songs, and would eat epic feats

If you push a electrical immunity piercing power at level 10, however (similar to the lyric thaumaturge that woudl have a sonic immunity piercing power at level 10, and hellfire warlock a fire imunity piercing power at level 3)... that could have an interest.

Re: Stormsinger Class Updates and Set Items Developement Started

Posted: Tue Sep 08, 2020 9:27 am
by kc2345
I very strongly disagree with that notion.

Stormsinger is already a PRC that has no feat pre-requisites, has full 10/10 caster level progression and full 10/10 song level progression. It also offers the flexibility of progressing bardsong while advancing a different caster class. This alone makes the stormsinger PRC decently powerful even if stormsongs were utterly useless.

Giving them a very high DC disable on their stormsongs on top of this is already a huge bonus. Stormsongs based on the current formula cap at 70 DC, while an AQ9 caster with 50 CL caps at around 66 DC for his level 9 spells. So you are already casting Storm of Vengeance with better DC than a CL 50 divine, while doing similar damage.

If you want high damage stormsongs and electrical immunity piercing on top of this, I think something else has to go - maybe lower their DCs and limit their spellcaster/song progressions.

Not sure what your concern with the CL is. The stated CL is "stormsinger level times 4, capped by character level. Additional 5% per ER".

This means that even a weird build like Fighter 28/Bard2/Stormsinger10 would cast his stormsongs at CL50. The main thing is to take stormsinger levels. Your other levels don't affect much, except for songs/day.

Re: Stormsinger Class Updates and Set Items Developement Started

Posted: Tue Sep 08, 2020 12:33 pm
by Samyx
I very strongly stand against your view as well.
I would like that PRC to be useful, special, and so far it is not.
So why bother take it ?
Set stacking ?
I can agree we disagree.

Re: Stormsinger Class Updates and Set Items Developement Started

Posted: Wed Sep 09, 2020 2:58 pm
by fox
It's good to actually test things before having too strong an opinion. Good on you for having a test run KC.
I'm sure the amazing team of Dev's and the man himself, Brian will make things great for Stormys!

Re: Stormsinger Class Updates and Set Items Developement Started

Posted: Wed Sep 09, 2020 5:43 pm
by bsb5652
Pushed these changes to beta for your perusal. Updated betapatch will be required.

@Fox: Yes, testing is very important for these types of changes and I'm being very cautious not to roll these level of changes out without a decent understanding on how they will effect base class play.


kc2345 wrote:Hi Brian,

I've tested Stormsinger on Beta and have made the following general observations:

1) Stormsong (Call Lightning) DC is still not working. Other Stormsong DCs are working as intended.
2) The Stormsongs all do too little damage (<200 at max CL) with the exception of Storm of Vengeance, which does too much damage (383 acid and potential for additional 383 electrical damage per round). I think the static ER component of the damage should go as well, to match spells. I have suggested some alternative formula and mechanics below.
3) Too much overlap between Winter's Ballad and Call Lightning stormsongs (this is a design flaw with the base class). They are essentially the same.
4) Description of CL can be shortened to - "Your caster level for Stormsongs is equal to 4 times your Stormsinger level, capped by your character level. You receive a 5% bonus to caster level per ER."
5) I think the minimum bard song level requirement for Stormsongs should be removed to allow for more flexibility in building a Stormsinger. A higher bardsong level still confers advantages in terms of more potent inspirations and more bardsong uses/day anyway.

Stormsong-Specific Suggestions:
1) Stormsong (Thunderstrike)
Range : 25' + 5'/2 levels
Target/Area : Target Creature
Duration : Instantaneous
Save: Fortitude partial (see text)
Spell Resistance: No

The DC of this stormsong is equal to 10 + 2/ER + ChaMod + stormsinger Level + Perform Skill / 5.
Your caster level for stormsongs is equal to 4 times your stormsinger level, capped by your character level. You receive a 5% bonus to caster level per ER.

At 3rd level, a stormsinger can use bardic music to unleash a deadly thunderbolt. The bolt can be targeted at any one creature, and the stormsinger must make a successful ranged touch attack to hit the target. If she hits, the stormsinger then deals 1d10 electrical damage and 1d10 sonic damage per caster level. If the creature fails its Fortitude save, it is deafened for 10 rounds. (//projected to do 275 electrical + 275 sonic at max CL)

2) Stormsong (Great Thunderstrike)
Range : 25' + 5'/2 levels
Target/Area : Target Creature
Duration : Instantaneous
Save: Fortitude partial (see text)
Spell Resistance: No

The DC of this stormsong is equal to 10 + 2/ER + ChaMod + stormsinger Level + Perform Skill / 5.
Your caster level for stormsongs is equal to 4 times your stormsinger level, capped by your character level. You receive a 5% bonus to caster level per ER.

At 9th level, a stormsinger can use bardic music to unleash a terrible stroke of lightning, followed by a deafening clap of thunder. The stormsong can be targeted at any one creature, and the stormsinger must make a successful ranged touch attack to hit the target. If she hits, the stormsinger then deals 1d12 electrical damage and 1d12 sonic damage per caster level. If the creature fails its Fortitude save, it is stunned for 3 rounds and deafened for 10 rounds.

This potent ability is quite exhausting to use; each time it is activated, the stormsinger uses two of her bardic music uses for the day. (//projected to do 325 electrical and 325 sonic at max CL)

2) Stormsong (Call Lightning)
Range : Personal
Target/Area : Huge
Duration : Instantaneous
Save: Reflex 1/2
Spell resistance : Yes

The DC of this stormsong is equal to 10 + 2/ER + ChaMod + stormsinger Level + Perform Skill / 5.
Your caster level for stormsongs is equal to 4 times your stormsinger level, capped by your character level. You receive a 5% bonus to caster level per ER.

A stormsinger of 5th level or higher can use bardic music to generate a Call Lightning effect, similar to the spell of the same name. This stormsong smites an area around the caster with bolts of lightning which strike all enemies. The bolts do 1d20 points of electrical damage per caster level. (//projected to do 525 electric at max CL)

3) Stormsong (Winter's Ballard)
Range: Long
Area of Effect / Target: Colossal, 1 Target / Level
Duration: Instant
Save: Reflex 1/2
Spell Resistance: Yes

The DC of this stormsong is equal to 10 + 2/ER + ChaMod + stormsinger Level + Perform Skill / 5.
Your caster level for stormsongs is equal to 4 times your stormsinger level, capped by your character level. You receive a 5% bonus to caster level per ER.

A stormsinger of 7th level or higher can use bardic music to generate a Chain Lightning, similar to the spell of the same name. This stormsong arcs a bolt of electricity through the caster's enemies for 2d16 points of electrical damage per caster level to the initial target and half that amount to all secondary targets. (//projected to do 850 on primary and 425 on secondary targets at max CL)

4) Stormsong (Song of Vengeance)
Range : Long
Target/Area : Colossal
Duration : 60 seconds
Save : Reflex Special
Spell Resistance: No

The DC of this stormsong is equal to 10 + 2/ER + ChaMod + stormsinger Level + Perform Skill / 5.
Your caster level for stormsongs is equal to 4 times your stormsinger level, capped by your character level. You receive a 5% bonus to caster level per ER.

At 10th level, a stormsinger can use bardic music to cause a storm of vengeance, similar to the spell of the same name. The area around the stormsinger is blasted by lightning and acidic rain. Each round, all enemies within the area of effect take 1d4 acid damage per caster level and must roll a reflex save to avoid additional effects.

Enemies who fail the reflex save take an additional 1d4 electrical damage per caster level and are stunned for two rounds. (//projected to do 125 acid with the potential for an additional 125 electrical per round at max CL)

This potent ability is quite exhausting to use; each time it is activated, the stormsinger uses four of her bardic music uses for the day.

5) Stormsong (Gust of Wind)
Range: Medium
Area of Effect / Target: Huge
Duration: Instant
Save: Fortitude negates
Spell Resistance: Yes

The DC of this stormsong is equal to 10 + 2/ER + ChaMod + stormsinger Level + Perform Skill / 5.
Your caster level for stormsongs is equal to 4 times your stormsinger level, capped by your character level. You receive a 5% bonus to caster level per ER.

A stormsinger of 1st level can use bardic music to generate a gust of wind, as the spell of the same name. This stormsong creates a blast of air that knocks down any creatures failing their saving throws. It is also powerful enough to disperse any area of effect spells (such as cloudkill) that are in the path of the wind gust.

Re: Stormsinger Class Updates and Set Items Developement Started

Posted: Thu Sep 10, 2020 5:45 am
by kc2345
Just tested the updated stormsongs. Noted the following issues:

1) Thunderstrike and Great Thunderstrike still allow for a reflex save for 1/2 damage. Could this be removed? I intended these 2 stormsongs to work in a manner similar to the single target K Orbs of an arcane caster. There already is a RTA component and a Fort save to negate the status effects.

2) The damage overall seems lower than expected. Tested on a level 40, ER5 with 10 stormsinger levels, and the damage seems more consistent with a level 40 caster as opposed to the expected level 50. Perhaps adding a combat log message for debugging that reports stormsinger CL would help narrow this issue down?

3) Great Thunderstrike hits a 3rd time for minor sonic damage. It also targets in a line as opposed to single target. Seems to be some vestigal code from the old version that hasn't been removed.

4) I was intending Winter's Ballard to work like the Chain Lightning spell. Right now, it still works like Call Lightning. Is it possible to copy/paste the chain lightning spell code over and modify it into a new stormsong?

Suggested balance changes:
1) Great Thunderstrike seems not a big enough damage and power jump over the regular Thunderstrike. Perhaps it could be raised to (1d10+2)/CL lightning and sonic damage, and add a 10 round blind effect on the failed Fort save? (//expected 375 electric and sonic for a total of 750 compared to the 275/275/550 of Thunderstrike)

2) Given the rather small radius of the Call Lightning effect, I think the damage of Stormsong (Call Lightning) could be raised to (1d20+2)/CL. This puts the damage at about 625 at max CL, which remains lower than the primary of chain lightning (850), but significantly higher than the secondaries (425), making both stormsongs useful in different situations.

Re: Stormsinger Class Updates and Set Items Developement Started

Posted: Thu Sep 10, 2020 6:58 pm
by bsb5652
Changes made and are on beta:

1) Thunderstrike and Great Thunderstrike still allow for a reflex save for 1/2 damage. Could this be removed? I intended these 2 stormsongs to work in a manner similar to the single target K Orbs of an arcane caster. There already is a RTA component and a Fort save to negate the status effects.

Saves removed from both

2) The damage overall seems lower than expected. Tested on a level 40, ER5 with 10 stormsinger levels, and the damage seems more consistent with a level 40 caster as opposed to the expected level 50. Perhaps adding a combat log message for debugging that reports stormsinger CL would help narrow this issue down?

CL Calculation verbose logging added to all Stormsong spells so we can properly evaluate CL.

3) Great Thunderstrike hits a 3rd time for minor sonic damage. It also targets in a line as opposed to single target. Seems to be some vestigal code from the old version that hasn't been removed.

Fixed

4) I was intending Winter's Ballard to work like the Chain Lightning spell. Right now, it still works like Call Lightning. Is it possible to copy/paste the chain lightning spell code over and modify it into a new stormsong?

It can be done, just not just yet.


Suggested balance changes:
1) Great Thunderstrike seems not a big enough damage and power jump over the regular Thunderstrike. Perhaps it could be raised to (1d10+2)/CL lightning and sonic damage, and add a 10 round blind effect on the failed Fort save? (//expected 375 electric and sonic for a total of 750 compared to the 275/275/550 of Thunderstrike)

Raised damage to 2d12 electrical damage and 2d12 sonic damage per caster level. Lets just see how beefy that is.

2) Given the rather small radius of the Call Lightning effect, I think the damage of Stormsong (Call Lightning) could be raised to (1d20+2)/CL. This puts the damage at about 625 at max CL, which remains lower than the primary of chain lightning (850), but significantly higher than the secondaries (425), making both stormsongs useful in different situations.


Updated to suggested value.