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6/2/2011 1:15:50 PM
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Mythaluk
Posts 66
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Um, this appears to have vanished (which is a self contradicting statement, but you know what I mean) and I am quite certain it is something I did as one of my posts duplicated itself and I deleted the duplication. Sorry (wince). 
Mythaluk
edited by Mythaluk on 6/2/2011
edited by Mythaluk on 6/2/2011
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6/2/2011 2:31:39 PM
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dragoaskani
Posts 20
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Well I know what thread you were referring to. Either the forums ate it, or a moderator deleted it for some reason...
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6/3/2011 12:35:18 AM
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MortisCorpus
Posts 420
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Most interesting... I certainly did not delete the thread. Regardless, I have the concept pretty much committed to memory since I've been working on this warlock concept for a while. I'll have to see if Brian has any sort of backup.
Deep Gnome, CN
Diety Bane
Str 6
Dex 14
Con 14
Int 14
Wis 10
Cha 14
All dex
1 Warlock, 3 Swash, 3 Warlock, 10 Knight of Tie, 7 Dragonslayer, 6 Warlock
Feats (as I remember them in no particular order): Spellcasting Prodigy, Dodge, Iron Will, Toughness, Weapon Focus Short Sword, Epic Toughness, EPic Resilience, Epic spell pen, Armor skin, Resist cold, Resist acid
I know I'm missing a few feats.
SR 41
BAB 27
Lowest Save 19
Spell Saves 6
Besh
edited by MortisCorpus on 6/3/2011
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6/4/2011 1:50:57 PM
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dragoaskani
Posts 20
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why the spell pen? After all you have a blast that ingores sr. Looks solid. I assume that you plan on taking ret invis. I just learned about kaeldins changes to duration. Will be taking it on mine at next lvl up when i play her again.
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6/5/2011 6:33:22 AM
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MortisCorpus
Posts 420
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Greater Spell Pen is free with the build prgoression. I figure if your given a good thing keep going with it. The build is more built around Eldritch Glaive type attacking than sitting back and blasting. Don't get me wrong, you could sit back and blast but 12d6 is not terribly strong in the scheme of things.
I see this guy running up on a target and doing somthing like this:
1d6(ShortSword)+1d10(Forge Mod)+1d10(Forge mod)+4 (1.5x Str Mod geared)+6 (Insightful Strike Bonus) + 12d6 Eldritch Glaive. So, Around 25 - 108 (50 - 216 Crits) an attack for 5-6 attacks in succession with the added effects of whatever Eldritch Essence you had on your glaive.
The one thing that this build has going for it is the high dexterity in the ER's. With that aspect you can make some seriously high-end Touch Attacks and you won't have to worry about your Spell Pen getting through with non-voltrolic type blasts. Not that I can see myself single-targeting much but it is always an option.
I'm working on build this now just to see how it works out in play.
Besh
edited by MortisCorpus on 6/5/2011
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6/11/2011 1:50:08 PM
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dragoaskani
Posts 20
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gotcha, hows that working out for you? Btw if you didn't know unmodified warlock blasts of 10d6 or more also ignore spell resists.
I did find your dd/forestmaster immunity build on the db when i was hunting down dr builds. Im trying a modified version of your build to allow smoother progression. Did it work out good for you?
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6/20/2011 1:34:42 AM
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MortisCorpus
Posts 420
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dragoaskani wrote:
gotcha, hows that working out for you? Btw if you didn't know unmodified warlock blasts of 10d6 or more also ignore spell resists.
I did find your dd/forestmaster immunity build on the db when i was hunting down dr builds. Im trying a modified version of your build to allow smoother progression. Did it work out good for you?
The warlock build is going well. If you are referring to an older build then I would have to say that I no longer know. I've been building for so long (I'm the eldest player aside from Brian) on RoT that I've had my vault deleted just to keep things clutter free.
I prefer to keep my builds focused to casters as it is my paticular love in RP but I do somtimes make builds that focus on fighting. I remember that the DD/forestmaster did have some amazing Con if I am remembering the same one your talking about.
The general premise was to make a build with epic DR that had amazing Con to allow for tremendous health regeneration while bolstering as many Immunities as possible within alloted feats allowed for progression.
Many of the things I have built have never left concept, but were simply asked advice put to a builder so that players could refernce them. I recall that the DD/Forest had issues with poor AB unitll the latter ER's (3-4). If you want me to run a build through build progression and gear it etc then I can make that happen just to give you an end-game picture.
Hope that clears up a bit,
Besh
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7/4/2011 4:13:27 AM
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Trinity
Posts 62
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This is my review of the auto-quick warlock blast build.
http://nwn2db.com/build.php?id=68244&version=1
Mortis, is it viable on RoT or is a bug abuse? I didn't read anything on the forum so I want to ask here before try this out. Anyway doesn't look OP on a hight magic shard like this and dispellable stuff.
One question that I can't answer myself. Blind fight is worth taking with ranged touch attack or not?
edited by Trinity on 7/4/2011
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Kuroky Mind Sculptor - support healing bard
Kurochy - slings? I love them all!
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7/4/2011 5:50:20 AM
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MortisCorpus
Posts 420
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With glaive, I'd certainly look into blind fight, as you are going to rely on your weapon hitting and then adding the eldritch dmg.
Very neat idea. I have never tried the concept of quickening blasts. Curious to see how this works out for you and this is certainly not a bug or abuse.
Besh
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7/4/2011 6:13:48 AM
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Trinity
Posts 62
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Yep, I will try this out today.
Too bad that all my end-game gear for cleric is epic forged on two different toons rofl, I will have too refarm some items 1st for fast levelling :P
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Kurochy - slings? I love them all!
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7/4/2011 7:20:23 AM
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GaryBlack
Posts 340
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Eld Glaive does not add weapon damage and it's not a weapon attack. It is a melee touch warlock spell that gets the normal Warlock dice damage. It requires an attack roll because it is a touch spell, thus Blind-Fight will help. Glaive is restricted to 2 blows per cast by CMI option.
Mort you are maybe confusing this with Hideous Blow which adds the blast damage as bonus to a melee weapon until the next attack connected.
Eldritch Blasts are supposed to be spell-like abilities (source: here and here), not spells. Auto-quicken is an epic metamagic feat for spells. Spell-like abilities are not supposed to work with metamagic (rules, bullet point 5 in 'differences'). Thus, using auto-quickened blasts/invocations IS bug abuse.
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7/4/2011 8:46:37 AM
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MortisCorpus
Posts 420
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Ehh, I say if it works while causing no server/game-play issues, abuse the hell out of it. We'll have to see if changing Warlock settings is feasible while still maintaining character balance and server stability. Worth a discussion in the least.
Yea, I am confusing the abilities.
Thinking, 1d6 (base weapon), +20 (str mod), +4d8 (added weapon dmg from forges), x 6 attacks per round = 150 to 348 per attack set for weapon based characters.
Trinity's Warlock as the current settings sit would be Glaiving for 9d6 x 2 so, 18 to 108 per attack set.
If it were increased to 8 attacks, 72 to 432 per attack set.
Worth some thought seeing as glaive attacks still get a essence I beleive etc.
edited by MortisCorpus on 7/4/2011
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7/4/2011 10:21:17 AM
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GaryBlack
Posts 340
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True... Warlock does need some love. And 'locks able to auto-quicken sacrifice some dices of blast power for it, so that should be ok.
Changing the Glaive CMI options a bit might be worth a consideration. 8 attacks might be a bit too much tho':
- There are a lot of resistances against melee damage types
- Warlock has a lot of elemental/magic damage which isn't resisted too much.
- Touch attacks have a higher hit chance (melee touch with +20 str might be a bit stupid tho', so the lower str counterbalances the higher hit chance)
- The biggest problem i see with caster based toons is the loss of targets and thus wasted rounds which might reduce the overall damage output
A Warlock focusing on Glaive is basically a melee toon/damage dealer and should have a comparable damage output, if not a bit more to counterbalance the differences in AC/HP.
Let's see how much damage an auto-quicking Warlock can get on one Glaive at max. I've thrown a quick build together: Test - ED. It has 21 dices and i don't see any possibility to raise this further. Just as a side note, the highest a pure Warlock can get is 30 dices, i tried this before. Let's do the math based on this:
- One blast 21d6: 21 - 126, average 73.5
- Current Glaive settings: 2*(21 - 126)/cast (147). Assuming both hit, it's 42 - 252/round,
with auto-quicken its double that amount, thus 84 - 504, avg: 294/round
Melees, assuming one medium sized weapon and full Str: 20 + 1d6+ 3*2d8 (ud) = 27 - 74, avg. 20 + 3.5 + 3*2*4.5 =~ 50. 7 attacks (26+ bab + haste) = 189 - 518, avg: 350/round. Damage bonuses from classes not counted in. Let's just say EDM, Swiftblade, Duelist, AK, WoD, Sneak Attack, Fighter, Bard... you know what i mean. Specialized builds might even have more attacks (flurrying Monks or 26+ bab Bladesinger with haste+song of fury).
My conclusion: a very specialized/maximised auto-quickened glaiving Warlock has roughly about the same maximum damage output and a far lower average damage than the weapon of a melee build ALONE without considering class features. However, touch attacks have a better chance to hit, assuming the same overall AB as the melee build. Doubling this will be far too much. A 50% increase should be fair for starters. This way the damage would be comparable to a 'normal' melee build, including class features, other bonuses etc. Once we have one or two builds out there to test this, we could adjust a little if necessary.
I suggest either...
1. Leave the Glaive Cap at 2 and allow haste bonus OR
2. Cap Glaive at 3 attacks
This will lead to a maximum of 6 attacks with auto-quicken. The version with allowing haste has a better chance to hit because 2 of the 3 attacks per Glaive will be made at highest bab. With auto-quicken you basically get 4 attacks at your highest bab for Glaive. I'd personally favor the first route as this higher hit chance counterbalances the other problems like loss of spell target etc. Moreover, it also helps Warlocks that don't focus on auto-quicken to hit better with Glaives.
However: This calculations and changes i suggested all are based upon that specialized build. Warlocks with fewer dices (and maybe more survivability) might just come close to the 'normal' melee weapon WITH those changes only. So adding another +1 the the cap might make not too specialized 'Locks viable as well (and might make the specialized ones into true monsters which is what a very specialized toon should be anyway, imo).
This change would only make melee-focused Warlocks more viable and not influence any other type of Warlock build.
Just my (a bit more than ;-P) 2 cents.
Thoughts/questions?
edited by GaryBlack on 7/4/2011
edited by GaryBlack on 7/4/2011
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Realms of Trinity DM
Leader of the O guild
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7/4/2011 11:35:00 AM
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Trinity
Posts 62
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Yes, I'll quote some random things and say my little word.
a) If a bug can bring a viable build togheter that is not OP, but playable on RoT, I would not flame for that.
This autoquicken build has a decent damage output, but in ROT where you have epic forge and insane damage on most of dps this is not an OP build. Would be an op build in a lower persistent word. On top of that it is also dispellable, as I said.
Btw, how many people relevel taking persistent spell without having a natural int/wis of 19+? This is a lot worst abuse that, still today, we can't fix for example.
b) the 2atk/round of glaive is an huge nerf that basically make glaive build not playable here. The dps is just not worth taking it as garyblack wrote. Maybe (?) 8atk are too much, but imo, 3 aren't either.
Someone of us should test Wlock and give a good report for DM to try one good balance for Warlock on ROT couz,this is an unique class that doesn't scale well with gear so can be totally OP on some shard and underpowered in others.
As I wrote, we should try to find ourselves a balance for them, couz Kaedrin can't find a good fix for all the persistent world regarding this question. On ROT, 2 atk/round of glave is an OVERNERF that just kill those builds.
edited by Trinity on 7/4/2011
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Kuroky Mind Sculptor - support healing bard
Kurochy - slings? I love them all!
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7/4/2011 12:10:15 PM
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The_Mighty_Bob
Posts 363
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Why exactly do you think you need a natural 19 in your spellcasting stat to take persistent spell? You only need to be able to cast 6th levels spells...
If you'd have said Epic Spells then you would have a point. Persistent spells, no - I think you got confused.
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7/4/2011 5:31:30 PM
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MortisCorpus
Posts 420
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Brian and I have been talking about this. Starting Wednesday or perhaps Thursday we will be firing up the beta to play with a few CMI options and examine some server response etc.
We shall see,
Besh
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7/9/2011 9:04:56 PM
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MortisCorpus
Posts 420
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Warlocks have just gained some ground. The new settings in the CMI are:
17 EldGlaiveAttackCap 4
18 EldGlaiveAllowEldMastery 1
19 EldGlaiveAllowEssence 1
20 EldGlaiveAllowCrits 1
21 EldGlaiveAllowHasteBoost 1
Thank Brian,
Besh
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7/9/2011 9:46:42 PM
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Pyrotics
Posts 317
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MortisCorpus wrote:
Warlocks have just gained some ground. The new settings in the CMI are:
17 EldGlaiveAttackCap 4
18 EldGlaiveAllowEldMastery 1
19 EldGlaiveAllowEssence 1
20 EldGlaiveAllowCrits 1
21 EldGlaiveAllowHasteBoost 1
Thank Brian,
Besh
Now I might actually make a Warlock O.o.
Thank Brian!
Pyrotics
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7/17/2011 12:37:06 PM
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Grim
Posts 82
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While it's tempting to go lock /sd for 30d6 x 4 maximized + empowered eldritch glaives, I have severe doubts about it's survivability on this particular server  I'd lean more towards an ED build with auto quicken 1 to get in 2 blasts/glaives per rounds (for 8 glaive attacks) along with 9th level divine casting. Sure the blast dice will be lower, but you'll have unlimited healing via your blast (which is great for groups) and all that sexy cleric buff action . And on top of it all, since you have to build to strength for glaives AB (unless kaedrin's fixed it to work with finesse yet) you can grab some mithril full plate and sport a +6 dex item with 10 base dex to max out your ac. Though since we're not playing some place with class level restrictions, you could probably sneak a level of SD in there if you wanted without to much trouble.
Only problem though (assuming the fix is in) is once EB's start getting treated properly concerning spell resist, a warlock/cleric/ED's caster level will be so low in both he won't be able to punch through the SR on higher end monsters. So ED's only really useful if you want to play support, or use it to turn your blast into a heal while still boosting invoker levels so you can hit stuff. Unless of course you're fighting things without much or any SR, in which case you're fine.
edited by Grim on 7/17/2011
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8/11/2011 10:11:21 PM
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Elidis
Posts 7
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Hey all,
I have recently come to RoT and I have a level 30 Warlock at the moment.
Im feeling quite squishy, but my damage output is pretty good imo(bar not having weapon users in your group who mash through things before you can cast a glaive spell >.>
I just want to know whats best to optimist a warlock these days, what invocations I should be taking, and what feats I should have. I was building my lock around CHA, but now I see im not realy using many DC invocations, so I think going dex would be better for me.
Please can you guys link me some example builds using the lastest RoT build for me to look at?
Any advice is welcome as well!
Many thanks,,
Elidis aka Akmenos
P.S. Realy want to chat to you Mortis in game!
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8/12/2011 2:45:40 AM
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MortisCorpus
Posts 420
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For what it's worth, the prime authority on warlocks and their capability is probably OutLaw_Rider. He has been running warlocks for as long as the server has been around and he knows the in's and out's of their play with detail. I will be happy to help you with questions or concepts though.
I'm off on Saturday, so I'll be online Saturday evening around 2100 CST to run some random event.
See you there,
An Angel
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8/12/2011 6:07:01 AM
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Elidis
Posts 7
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Thanks for getting back to me,
Ill keep an eye out for OutLaw_Rider on the server and ask him all my warlock questions hehe 
Ill talk to you on Saturday then
If anyone wants to add something conserning my question then please feel free
Elidis aka Akmenos
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8/15/2011 8:18:05 AM
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Elidis
Posts 7
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I spent some time looking at spells, feats and such for warlocks recently and I have come up with an optimised warlock build:
link
Please feel free to view it and comment about it, looking froward to feedback.
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8/17/2011 9:41:06 PM
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jonyboulder
Posts 77
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I've always wondered about warlocks on RoT. They'd be good on some part in UD but their glass canon-ness seems less attractive. Made two builds: one Dex 'Lock(link) and a disabler 'Lock(link). I was told that caster are better to concentrate on high DCs, and thats what I've been recommending to Elidis. Juging from the direction of the thread though, it seems that DEX 'Locks are the way to go. Is this true?
Still feeling like a newbie here.
Jony
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8/18/2011 3:47:11 AM
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GaryBlack
Posts 340
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Depends on what you want to achieve.
Dex locks will have an easier time to hit with most of their invocations/blasts (except cone and doom shapes). That means, if you want to go for pure damage output, a dex warlock with blasts/chains/spears/glaives/tempest blast/repelling blast is the way to go. Dex 'locks have a higher AC as well (except some special cha based divine shield builds maybe).
A DC based Warlock has a better chance of inflicting status ailments or similar (knockdown, daze, paralyze, blind, scare, level drain etc...), but reliably dealing damage will be harder. Normal blasts (touch attacks) will be less likely to hit at all, so the natural way to go would be Cone or Doom. However, these are DC based and allow a save for half damage. I once posted a little calculation about the DC a Warlock could get (3rd post).
On a side note, SR Penetration feats DO work for blasts, but only with half the value, so its +1/+2/+3 instead of +2/+4/+6. Spell Focus feats do not work. Plus, iirc, Kaedrin included in his Warlock fixes a fix of the Spellcaster Bug (in 1.41.1), so a Warlock Caster Level can not go above 31 (maximum epic dc bonus for caster level will be +3 at cl 29)
Regardless of your style of play, i don't think a Warlock can deal with the later chapters on his own as good as some sturdy melee types can. Imo, a DC based 'lock is more reliant on a party than a pure blaster, but they still both are.
edited by GaryBlack on 8/18/2011
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