GaryBlack
Posts 340
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There are some tips that re-occur in a lot of threads in the building forum. So I'll try and collect at least some of them here. I'll update the info and explanation whenever i find something worth adding.
Moreover, i will add in a brief explanation of the behinds (if possible) since we occasionally do get players that are completely new to NWN2 (thanks to Steam ;-P). Maybe i'm just repeating old stuff here. Nevertheless, i thought it'd be good to have all of that in one place as a quick reference. I've attached a spreadsheet with a summary of all the important numbers. If i'm referring to any number that's not mentioned in the text, it will be in the sheet. It does repeat a few of the numbers mentioned in the 'Max Caps' sticky, i still added them for the sake of completeness.
There are 4 links you should know about when building:
- The DB
- Thorssons thread in the Bioware forums with general tips about good building. I'll argue whether Thorsson's power distribution holds true for a high magic world like Trinity as well, nevertheless, it does contain some good tips and descriptions.
- The NWN2 Wiki. It's a good place to look up mechanics and other stuff. It only contains core content, so if you can't find a feat here, it's from Kaedrin's pack.
- Kaedrin's site, especially the update history up to 1.40.4 (current version that runs in Trinity). Any feat mentioned in the 'New Feats' section is, well, new and thus subject to magic caps (more on that further down)
Let's start with 2 basic statements here.
1. Trinity is a high magic world. As such there are a lot of high (magical) bonuses.
2. Trinity uses Kaedrin's prestige class pack. Why does it matter for builds? Well, first of, you have a lot of classes to chose from. Secondly, which is more important, due to the way the game is implemented, every kind of bonus Kaedrin brought into the game counts as a magical bonus. I'll refer to core content or Kaedrin's whereever it matters.
Those 2 statements induce a potential conflict/way to optimize builds:
Almost anything within the game can not be raised above a certain maximum value, called a cap. The trick is to know these caps, which effect counts against which cap and thus, to not take feats/classes that add bonuses to a cap that has already been reached (assuming there's no other benefit worthwhile to that class/feat). In general there are 2 kinds of caps: Those for the total value of a certain number and those for magical bonuses to a certain value type.
The general rule for determining whether something counts against a cap or not depends on the source of the bonus:
- Any effect spells or spell-like abilities induce count against the magical cap of that certain type of effect
- Bonuses from items are considered magical
- Passive Core feats/class abilities only matter for the total value since they are hardcoded into the engine (assuming they have not been overriden by a custom feat)
- Passive bonuses from Kaedrin's classes/feats are magical as well (there are some exceptions).
So, when considering your equipment, the total amount of still working magic bonuses from classes/feats/spells shrinks. This fact will make certain feats unnecessary or not worth taking, which, in turn, frees up feat slots and possibilites for other things.
Calculations
For most of the value types, there is a certain amount of subtypes. Additionally to core and magic the game distinguishes between:
- AB: general, ranged, melee, ranged touch, melee touch
- Saves: general, fortitude, reflex, will, poison, any element, basically anything you can have a save against
- AC: armor, shield, deflection, dodge, natural, innate
- Attributes: Strength, Dexterity, Constitution, Intelligence, Wisdom, Charisma
First of all, caps are applied to any subtype. If there's a general bonus, the engine will first add general+specific and THEN apply the cap to the result. So, e.g., having +13 Fortitude and +9 General (both magical) save bonus will not result in 22 bonus to fortitude, but cap at 20. Depending on whether a certain value type stacks, bonuses of the same type from different sources will be added. Example: Ring of Fortitude + 2 and Ring of Fortitude +7 (assuming both are equipped at the same time) would stack, resulting in a total of +9 magical bonus to Fortitude saves.
Stacking
There are a few rules what kind of bonus will stack with what, depending on the source:
- AB/AC bonuses from classes (a few exceptions, mentioned in the respective descriptions)
- Any bonus to saves stack, although Kaedrin includes a 'fix' in his newer updates so that several spells won't stack anymore (not in RoT yet)
- Magical AB bonuses from whatever source (Exception: gloves+weapons don't stack, weapon bonus will be used if one is equipped, otherwise glove bonus)
- Magical bonuses to Dodge AC from any source, none of the other AC types stack as magic bonuses (class/feats usually do) (caps at 20, like any other kind of AC)
- Shield/Shades AC seems to stack with EA Elemental Shield although it shouldn't since both are Shield AC enhancements
- Elemental Resistances from class/feat/race stack.
- Most damage bonuses stack (some class abilities do not stack with spell damage bonuses e.g.)
- Any bonuses to skills stack
- Any DR/SR/Elemental Resistance you have from classes/feats or race will not stack with such bonuses from items. Only the higher bonus applies.
- Ability bonuses from items do not stack, so having two items with +3 Str each will not result in a total of +6
- Concealment bonuses do not stack, no matter the source
So it is worth it to consider the equipment and spells when building. Especially for magic AB bonuses and non-stackable stuff. This way you can remove redundancies and get more useful stuff into your build. It also helps to optimize equipment if you know what you can get from your spells/classes. Again, Kaedrin's classes need to receive special attention here. Most of their abilities either count against the magical caps OR do not stack with items/other classes even if they - in theory - should have to (example: Frost Mage's Natural Armor Bonus should - similiarly to Pale Master - stack with Amulet Armor Bonus, but it doesn't because both are magical bonuses and magical Natural Armor bonuses don't stack, so taking it for AC alone is useless). 'Sacred' typed bonuses are an exception to the no-stacking rules as they are magical but do stack with both, classes and item bonuses (eg. Aura of Glory)
Stacking - Damage reduction
Damage reduction deserves a separate sub-chapter. Contrary to other effects the rules are a bit more complex here:
- Epic DR stacks with any (passive=always active) DR granted by classes/feat
- Classes/feats that grant DR do only stack if their description says that they are stacking
- DR from permanent sources (classes/feats) will not stack with DR granted by spells/activated feats or items (magical effects for short), only the highest bonus applies
Example:
A build with barbarian DR 3/- takes the feat Armor Specialization (Medium) and thus has DR from 2 sources:
- Barb 3/-
- Armor spec 2/-
Those two don't stack, so only the 3/- from Barb apply. Assuming this build will take 2 Epic DR feats, the DR will change like this:
- Barb 9/-
- Armor Spec 8/-
Since Epic DR is supposed to stack with any kind of DR from classes or feats, it will stack with Armor Spec (Kaedrin did implement a work around here to account for the Epic DR feats. What you get here effectively is a permanent magical effect that is 2 + 3*Epic DR feats). However, the DR from Armor Spec will still be lower as the one granted by Barb, so it won't have any effect.
Building
Before i start with that, there are some things to be aware of:
- Kaedrin's cleric domains are NOT allowed in Trinity, even if you are able to select them because you've installed Kaedrin's locally.
- The Ninja class is not available in Trinity
- Dread Commando is bugged and occasionally dispels party members.
- If you're not sure whether something belongs to Kaedrin's, use the library of the DB and select Game Version: Storm of Zehir. If you can't find the feat/class there, it's part of Kaedrins. This is also a good way to see which domains are allowed.
- Regarding Kaedrin's, check out the CMI options (PRC forum here) if you want to use something that's regulated there to see whether it's really going to work as you expect it to.
Now to the building itself. I can't really say too much here, since everyone got his/her own methods and i'm trying to keep it as general as possible. Guess i'll just blabber a bit about how i normally do it. Usually there's an initial idea in the form of a certain fighting style, party role, weapon, prestige class or rp background. First i try to find the class that i feel fits that idea the best and just randomly put it somewhere from level 10 or downwards (as prc) without considering the pre-reqs first. After this i try to find classes that supplement that idea the best, then the ability scores (i'm normally deciding on the race at this point as well). Then come the feats, skills are last. Once this initial build idea is set, the juggling begins... leveling order, feats, changing the split, adjusting skills, etc. The most important tool here is the DB and the 'build summary'.
Things to pay attention to (some reflect my personal opinion tho')
- There are several ways to obtain Keen Weapons, so taking Improved Critical is rarely worth it (exceptions are ranged weapons and unarmed fighting)
- Characters that rely on spells to reach viability, are potentially more vulnerable to beholders. Whenever i'm talking about considering spells/buffs it is under the assumption that you are willing to take the risk of being dispelled and thus construct a build that uses/relies on spells. If you are not, ignore the spell part of whatever i'm writing.
- If you want a character with 6 attacks (26 BAB), the absolute maximum of medium BAB class levels you can take is 16, thus you'll need either 14 levels in high BAB base classes OR less +(at least) one high BAB PRC. Depending on the split it might even be less (eg: 5 monk + 5 cleric will lose 4 BAB already). Low BAB classes allow even less levels (8 to be precise).
- Caster levels below 25 will make your character very vulnerable to greater dispels. Still, it is a matter of personal preference whether you want to take that risk or not.
- Persistent Spell is... of arguable value for arcane casters (exception: Swiftblades), since there are not too many spells worth persisting. And extending them might even last longer.
- Consider your abilities and how the final outcome should look like. There's a total of 27 Ability points to distribute (20 from ers, 7 from level ups). To goal should be to reach 50 in your primary stat including item bonuses. My spreadsheet contains a list of the highest possible item bonus and the item type they can be found on. No names or drop locations tho' since there's the server drop spreadsheet and i don't want to spoil the fun of finding them. Also consider your spells here, if any (especially Spirit of the Bear/Wolf, Owl's Insight).
- Skills: If possible at all, try to get ranks of Tumble into the build, even if it's only 10. Get either 10, 20 or 30 ranks for the extra AC, everything else is a waste of skill points. The same holds true for Spellcraft, but in steps of 5 instead of 10. If you can manage to get a total modified UMD of 28 (including ability bonus, item bonus etc) you're good to use any item out there. In case you have to chose between Spot and Listen, Spot clearly wins because it helps against being feinted as well. However, MS is usually harder to obtain than Hide, so it might be easier to discover hidden mobs with listen (if you don't care about being feinted, maxing listen only is valid as well)
Example
To explain some of the stuff above, i've created a somewhat... strange, sucky build. It's supposed to be a divine spellsword including party support. Probs: It's Wis based, uses Intuitive Attack and has Battle Dancer. First, Intuitive Attack: With the right Wis boosting item, this toon will have +13 Wisdom modifier pre-ER, the maximum Str mod it can reach pre-er is +6 (15 + 7), so Intuitive Attack will grant +7 magic AB bonus. Adding in the +8 of the Weapon, Haste and Battle Dancer, it's got +18 magic AB bonus. However, there is a potential +5 magic bonus to AB from Inspire Courage and we didn't consider Greater Heroism yet (both add a total of +9, even without Battle Dancer, we'd still be +5 over the cap (magic ab cap=20).). This gets even worse as you get access to UD forged equipment and pump more point into Wis. The final AB you can reach with that build as it is will be 27 + 1 wf + 1 prowess + 6 str + 20 magic=55, with Divine Power it's 3 more, but still low. If you'd focused on Str instead, it would have been 27 + 1 + 1 + 20 + 20=69 potentially. Thus, focusing on Wis with Intuitive Attack and taking Battle Dancer is a bad choice for melee based spellswords because they'll reach the magic cap with just the weapon and a few spells alone. Possibilites for this build are either going Str based melee as i've explained, or focus more on the caster/supporter role, thus, dropping combat feats (war domain, expose weakness, battle dancer, intuitive attack) and get more spellcaster stuff (persistent spell, spell focus, bard music increasing feats, spell penetration, spellcasting prodigy at 1st level, domains: luck+earth). Regardless of the route this one takes, Epic Resilience should be a pick here. It's worth far more than another +2 Ability Points could ever be. Moreover, Improved Critical is a wasted feat, since the cleric has the spell 'Weapon of Impact' for blunt weapons (they don't stack.. so why waste a feat?). More comments/ways to improve it can be found in the build description itself.
That's it for the general part. If you have any feedback/questions or want some of the mechanics explained, post your question and i'll include it to the first post to keep it clean and at one place.
edited by GaryBlack on 5/30/2011
edited by GaryBlack on 5/31/2011
edited by GaryBlack on 6/8/2011
edited by GaryBlack on 6/14/2011
edited by GaryBlack on 6/30/2011
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Realms of Trinity DM
Leader of the O guild
Attachments:
rot_numbers.xls
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