Two-weapon defence and unfairness.

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Poll: Edit and remove Perfect Two Weapon Fighting from Crookweave?

Poll ended at Mon Jun 05, 2017 10:40 am

1. Yes
7
25%
2. No
21
75%
Total votes: 28

Chemic_al
Posts: 28

Two-weapon defence and unfairness.

Post#1 » Fri May 19, 2017 5:49 am

Now, I know alot has changed since I left many years ago, but some of what I'm reading has me scratching my head, not least the absurdity that you can waste 3 feats on the 2-weapon defence line for what 7 shield AC with no Epic two-weapon defence feat after that and you get people that can just shove +12 shield AC on a double-weapon AND end up with better AC? Seriously?

Ok, don't get me wrong, there have been alot of good changes that I see, but this one I think is just wrong.

If normal weapons can only add deflection, why are these double-weapons allowed to get shield?

adam
Posts: 460

Re: Two-weapon defence and unfairness.

Post#2 » Fri May 19, 2017 9:05 am

TWD=1 AC
ITWD=2 AC
GTWD=BAB/5+1

if you have 40 BAB, that is 12 shield AC. I hope this helps.

Caylin
Posts: 329

Re: Two-weapon defence and unfairness.

Post#3 » Fri May 19, 2017 9:40 am

On my toons itwd gives 2 ac yes, but that doesnt stack with the 1 from twd. So you get close but not quite the same ac. Many sets give shield ac though and can thus compensate for not using one.

So far my most powerful toons on either defense or offense don´t even use shields.

Chemic_al
Posts: 28

Re: Two-weapon defence and unfairness.

Post#4 » Sat May 20, 2017 4:24 am

adam wrote:TWD=1 AC
ITWD=2 AC
GTWD=BAB/5+1

if you have 40 BAB, that is 12 shield AC. I hope this helps.


Not really. That's 3 feats, and doesn't apply until you're level 40 - with all High BAB classes, and as mentioned ITWD doesn't stack with TWD, so tops out at 11.

A double-weapon user gets +12 shield AC at ER1, when those poor twd guys are maxed at 9 and 3 feats down for it.

Caylin it's not about which builds are the most powerful in defence or offence without shields, it's what reasoning allows shield AC to be forged at all on them when others are stuck with deflection; all weapons should be the same.

As for set items, red herring, unless you get the drop or acquire some other way you can't have it.

adam
Posts: 460

Re: Two-weapon defence and unfairness.

Post#5 » Sat May 20, 2017 10:28 am

double weapons require two stats to take advantage of - dual-wielding+cotw(or a sneak dice class) class only takes one. Is that enough of an investment to justify the shield AC? Maybe, maybe not, but it is en element you are ignoring, when comparing the two.

Lomir
Posts: 237

Re: Two-weapon defence and unfairness.

Post#6 » Sat May 20, 2017 11:17 am

Also, don't forget that double weapons require 2 feats in order to be used, exotic and double weapon proficiency respectively. While 12 AC for 2 feats is a pretty sweet investment, having to invest heavily in 2 separate stats definitely impacts the balance.

Chemic_al
Posts: 28

Re: Two-weapon defence and unfairness.

Post#7 » Sat May 20, 2017 11:28 am

In this environment 2 stats at 50 is perfectly possible, so I'm fairly sure a modest 25 Dex investment with 20 free attribute points is an element, but let's face it, a fairly minor one.

I'm trying to understand the reason why they are even allowed to put shield AC on at all.

Incidentally, since you mentioned COTW/Sneakers, which probably means rapiers/kukris as weapons of choice, which because of this are made scarcer than other weapon types - deliberately. So maybe they should be allowed shield AC too then to balance it out.

Lomir, and the dual-weaponers get +11 AC for 3 feats @ level 40 and 9 AC at 30. So they don't even get a comparable deal for that extra feat. I don't buy this whole "stat" thing. You don't need PTWF straight away, but it's easily obtainable along the way, where those dexers get screwed. Edit: In fact you only 17 Dex, and that's going to be the majority of your damage output right there
Last edited by Chemic_al on Sat May 20, 2017 11:39 am, edited 1 time in total.

Chemic_al
Posts: 28

Re: Two-weapon defence and unfairness.

Post#8 » Sat May 20, 2017 11:35 am

Oh and don't forget the other advantage the double-weapons have with legendary materials and forging, it's forge once and you get the benefit twice so to speak, an option again denied dual-wielders.

Any which way you dice it, the dual-wielders get a crappy deal, and frankly the justification is weak.

More feats
Less AC
More costs (two weapons)/ Less Options
vs a modest Stat requirement.
Better damage output
Better use of legendary matierals.

Lomir
Posts: 237

Re: Two-weapon defence and unfairness.

Post#9 » Sat May 20, 2017 1:56 pm

The stat requirement isn't really modest. If I'm a dual wielder, I most likely have 50 Dex, which is a straight 20 AC. If I'm using a double weapon, I most likely am not breaking 30 dex, which is a flat 10 AC difference. Even if I am choosing to cap my dex as well, I'm passing on the ability to increase my con, or a relevant casting stat provided I'm a caster as well (looking at you Bard). I agree that the forging options for double weapons are definitely tasty, but there are definitely huge drawbacks to having a different stat for AB and AC, which dual wielders don't normally face.

addict-ant
Posts: 423

Re: Two-weapon defence and unfairness.

Post#10 » Sat May 20, 2017 3:35 pm

I think you may also be missing the Tempest class - 5 lvls wil net +2AB, +3AC. Levelling the playing field somewhat at ER1.

The two most powerful dual wielding toons I currently know of (jwm1972's + caylin's dual falchion characters) outstrip my double-axe weapon user in damage consistently...and i have one of the most powerful DM award double-axes I've seen, fully legendary'd up with a Max EDM/STR/CHR build. I console myself with the knowledge that i have a slightly better AC.... ;)
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