Monk Set / Class Discussion

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MortisCorpus
Posts: 1392

Monk Set / Class Discussion

Post#1 » Thu Jul 27, 2017 3:30 pm

Current Monk discussion points:

1) Knockdown immunity (likely to Set Boots vs. Set Bonus)

2) Damage review vs allowable forge.
a. Current monk set damage review.
b. Comparison vs fighter set damage.
c. Adjustment to be comparable in a scaling fashion.

3) AB bonus. (custom feat line)
a. We are looking at a bonus to AB for monks, but for all of them, not just set owners.
b. Monk only progression.
c. +1 – 10 bonus progression to AB, based on feats taken. (We are still discussing possible tie-in feats and requirements for this to be fair.

4) Addition of a monk only feat to negate AB decrease effects.
a. I may add AB decrease immunity to the set as well.

Please feel free to add / discuss possible things the class / set could use. I will be moving forward with proposed changes after a good deal of brain storming and comparative analysis.

Thanks guys,
Mort
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MortisCorpus
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Re: Monk Set / Class Discussion

Post#2 » Thu Jul 27, 2017 7:09 pm

5) Addition of a battle gauntlet to DM Award line.
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adam
Posts: 463

Re: Monk Set / Class Discussion

Post#3 » Fri Jul 28, 2017 12:13 am

is there any reason that Monk couldn't have the same BAB progression as a fighter?

MortisCorpus
Posts: 1392

Re: Monk Set / Class Discussion

Post#4 » Fri Jul 28, 2017 12:27 am

A +1 - +10 feat line would effectively do that with devotion. The strength monks would be entirely to strong with pure BAB progression. A feat devotion line for the ability to equivocate is more of what Brumm and I have spoken about.
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kc2345
Posts: 486

Re: Monk Set / Class Discussion

Post#5 » Fri Jul 28, 2017 1:38 am

1) Should sacred fist/fist of the forest add to devotion bonus in the same manner fighter and rogue-adjacent PrCs add to set bonuses?

2) Just saw the commit log. Does this mean existing 4/5 set users with 12 monk levels will see a 3d10 -> 3d8 damage drop (-3 dmg), while 12 monk devotion 5/5 set users will see a 3d10 -> 4d8 damage gain (+1.5 dmg)? 4/5 set users likely replaced the amulet with a PTWF crookweave or boots with a DM award item for KD immunity.

3) Does devotion go up in multiples of 4 levels? Just curious to know.

4) Not sure what the value of AB decrease immunity is. Other than Stiriges in Illithid Keep, don't recall any enemies where this is a factor.

5) Maybe a +5 SR/ER boost to let monk SR scaling keep pace with a divine caster's SR buff?

6) I don't think giving monks high BAB progression with a feat would make strength monks OP, as pumping STR means the monk has way lower AC than a DEX+WIS monk, and no sane monk build I can think of goes for EDM for really high damage.

Maybe make the feat +1-+10 to BAB instead of a AB boost? Doing that prevents monks using divine power or tensers for ridiculous AB.
Last edited by kc2345 on Fri Jul 28, 2017 5:44 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Chemic_al
Posts: 61

Re: Monk Set / Class Discussion

Post#6 » Fri Jul 28, 2017 5:40 am

The Set:

Well the First thing I'd change is the fact the boots give you a feat you would already get meeting the pre-reqs of being able to equip the items in the first place: Improved Evasion, which you get a level 9, with 12 required to equip. So how about changing that to a feat like Blind-fight or something?

Damage bonuses, they should probably be non-resist like the blackguard's.

More shield AC, +2 per item seems fair - it's still waaaay below the extra AC granted by rogue/fighter set which give shield, natural and deflection.

----

Monks

If you're trying to incentivise monk levels past 1, yes they need AB boost, but they need big damage boost. As it currently stands every monk level over 1, you probably should've taken another class.

Take rogues as an example, even without finishing stroke, rogue levels are superior to monks because sneak dice add up, you can mix with swashbuckler and keep dice for high BAB. Monks enjoy no special ability to bring their damage up to par and they can't multi-class in the same way.

Anything your monk/fighter or rogue/monk can do, a rogue/fighter can do better with more damage and better ab to boot.

Their weapon choice for flurrying is the worst of the lot. Staves, Kamas and Fists. All rubbish damage/crit profiles. Kamas don't even qualify for the acid rune damage bonus that rogues can put on their weapons of choice.

Sacred Fists are in the same dilemma - It really needs to be a 24 level PRC like Eldritch Knight, and only drop 2 levels of casting max. Every level of monk taken decreases the power because a caster level is worth more than what monk gives by a long shot. Even if it's done by handing out similar to the marksman PrC , the normally fighter only feats.
There really has to be a reason to even equip the monk set for them in the first place, that or make SF levels count as monk levels to equip so monk 2/sf 10 or monk 12, or sf 12 etc

I don't even buy Str Monks would be too strong with High BAB, you'd never want more than 12 or so levels anyway, because you'd be multi-classing out into a fighter type for the AB/Damage feats and a class like duelist for AC.

Chemic_al
Posts: 61

Re: Monk Set / Class Discussion

Post#7 » Fri Jul 28, 2017 5:51 am

Regading the commit logs:

Monk set damage changed.
-Scales from 12 - 28 levels devotion.
-4th damage type added, (piercing) at 5 pieces equipped.
-1d8 - 2d12 damage scaling at 28+.

Immunity to Attack Decreases added at 5 pieces equipped.

Immunity to Knockdown added to Boots.
(trades / exchanges will not apply)

Bladed Gauntlets (monk gloves without a monk prerequisite) added to DM Award line.

Pending Beta.


Are these changes live? Logged in my damage bonus at 12 levels and 3 pieces was 1d10, and the boots were unchanged with no immunity knockdown

MortisCorpus
Posts: 1392

Re: Monk Set / Class Discussion

Post#8 » Fri Jul 28, 2017 7:55 am

I pushed them to SourceTree. They need to be reviewed and put on beta. Not live yet.
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MortisCorpus
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Re: Monk Set / Class Discussion

Post#9 » Fri Jul 28, 2017 2:26 pm

Regarding the immunity to AB Decrease, ...

This will negate enemy curse, curse song, or any other unseen skill/feat/spell that would effect AB. It is the only 'boon' to AB the fighter set received and I think the difference without it is palpable.

Regarding damage, ...

Yes, at the minimum to equip it is reducing the damage to 1d8, but steps up a dice at 5 pieces to equal out with other set awards.

Currently, sonic at 3, pos/neg at 4 and now pierce at 5 pieces equipped. The damage will scale in progressively increasing dice towards the 2d12 max dice at 28+ levels monk.

Regarding PrC inclusion, ...
I did not discuss this with Brumm but will keep the advice in my notes pending beta. Adding it is easy enough, but I would rather start slow and give steadily than have to nerf later.

Regarding the monk boots, ...
There will be no change to preexisting boots. Once the changes go live players can farm/donate for the newest edition. There will be no exchange / trade option for the new boots.

Mort
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Chemic_al
Posts: 61

Re: Monk Set / Class Discussion

Post#10 » Fri Jul 28, 2017 6:25 pm

Disappointing.

MortisCorpus wrote:Regarding the immunity to AB Decrease, ...

This will negate enemy curse, curse song, or any other unseen skill/feat/spell that would effect AB. It is the only 'boon' to AB the fighter set received and I think the difference without it is palpable.


About the only positive thing you've changed here.

As for the rest, well, I thought the idea was to understand why monk was a 1-level dip class and address the issues.

Regarding damage, ...

Yes, at the minimum to equip it is reducing the damage to 1d8, but steps up a dice at 5 pieces to equal out with other set awards.

Currently, sonic at 3, pos/neg at 4 and now pierce at 5 pieces equipped. The damage will scale in progressively increasing dice towards the 2d12 max dice at 28+ levels monk.


So the one thing monks desperately need, is nerfed. There is literally no reason to even take monk level 2 at the moment. Who in their right mind would go beyond 12 to equip the set? It's a losing proposition to go monk 12 even with the set, when the rogue and fighter sets are leagues better, let alone monk 28 - I'm not quite sure if this is a joke albeit a very bad one.

Regarding the monk boots, ...
There will be no change to preexisting boots. Once the changes go live players can farm/donate for the newest edition. There will be no exchange / trade option for the new boots.

Mort


So not only do I have 3 pieces of a garbage set, I'll now have boots with a redundant feat and untradeable for something better like a hexblade ring because they'll be literally worthless? At least that does *something* I wouldn't have already.

Yes, this post is laced with sarcasm, but the set as is is bad, and this is like slapping people in the face for already having the boots now.

Upside? There's no reason to persist with my rogue/monk, I'll go rogue/fighter with it and have a choice of 2 good sets and be effective with it. And yeah if I'm going to donate, you bet I'd get something *good* with it.

It's really hard to say anything constructive when the changes ignore the problems, so sorry this is about as diplomatic as I can muster.

Cheers.

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